Was Satan a stoner?

[babylon_n_ting]

Was the Dark Lord a user of our sacred herb?

[Pursewarden]

Was the Dark Lord a user of our sacred herb?

I would think that it depends on your definition of Satan.

Are you going with the pre-fall Lucifer, than yes. Seeing that Lucifer means "light bearer" and he was the angel that brought knowledge, than sure.

http://is2.okcupid.com/users/182/224/18322489443503885590/mt1116983148.jpg

But if you are going with a more, Dante's Satan, than I doubt he could fit a bowl in any of his three mouths as he chewed Brutus, Cassius, and Judus.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/71/Giotto%27s_Satan_in_the_Last_Judgment.jpg

[babylon_n_ting]

I would think that it depends on your definition of Satan.



I love the artwork you posted. The one of Satan stuffing himself is hilarious.

I can picture Satan toking up in the first picture.

[Ostritt]

I think the construct of satan is really closely related to Christianity's fear of truth and freedom in general, so in that sense I would say that yes he is a toker. He is a path to gnosis that Christianity says you have no right to because their insecure God would be angry should you know as much as he does. Of course both of these figures are anthropomorphised constructs and probably more similar to the nightmares of virgin scribes than anything else. The sad thing is that people took their ideas as their own and now believe that alcohol is the kind of drug a good God endorses while weed is something satan would endorse... there is no limit to how absurd humans can be in their thinking.

[The Salvia Kid]

Was the Dark Lord a user of our sacred herb?

What is the evidence for (a) existence of said entity and (b) said entity having a crafty one?

[crowley666]

Ostritt.....man! I could talk to you for hours! You bloody genius!:D

[Ostritt]

Hehe thanks man. Hopefully you'll be able to read my book in the next few months! The ideas in this thread are explored quite a bit. Ostritt is actually the surname of my protagonist, it comes from two Old English words, Os (God) and tritt (walks, moves etc). Peace!

[BlackBeauty]

Fascinating thread Ostritt - tell us more about this book?

[Ostritt]

It's fictional and is structured in a dual narrative, one following a little girl in a shamanic tribe whose friend (and others) have been converted to Christianity and left the rest of the tribe to live in a mission under the Sky Teacher (the priest) The other narrative follows a young journalist who follows the little girl in his dreams (which he doesn't remember) The two stories are intertwined and eventually he goes to South America and makes his way to the mission where everything kicks off in a big way. It's primarily about every person's right to take entheogens and the domination of the my sacrament, the mushroom, by Christianity's sacrament, alcohol. Also it explores spirituality vs religion, fear, love and the nature of consciousness. It culminates in a mushroom trip in which I as the author was also tripping. This section is actually handwritten... part of the reason for this was to dissolve the barriers between character and creator/reader writer so that part of the psychedelic experience could be reconciled with literature. It was a gamble but it ended up paying off in ways I couldn't imagine (the mushroom was happy to let me write, or actually I would say it encouraged me)

Max has been kind enough to read the manuscript, he actually gave me some great shoutouts in Psychonautica 18 and 19 (just to clear something up about 19, it isn't about ayahuasca and the title isn't really related to the amazon basin, though it was interesting to hear that as I had never thought of the connection!) It's been much appreciated and hopefully he'll give some first impressions when he's done. Dennis McKenna also agreed to read the manuscript, he's got it at the moment and has been really sound and supportive. Also a few close friends and an author I know have copies, so just waiting until everyone has finished the first draft so I can get feedback, edit, finish the final copy and send it to publishers. It's about 2 months since I finished and on some advice I haven't looked at the manuscript since then (so that when I go back to it it is with a fresh perspective) It is by far the most challenging part of the whole experience, which I wasn't expecting. Wouldn't have it any other way though :D

Anyway hopefully you'll be hearing more about Beyond the Basin in the future. Peace!

[BlackBeauty]

Aaaah - now I recall! You're Peabody's brother?

I'm very much looking forward to it, have heard some great things from Max Freakout on the manuscript via the Podcast.

[Manila_Housecat]

:confused: Was the Dark Lord a user of our sacred herb?
Was he? The angel of light still has power on earth and has yet to be destroyed, given by the fact that we're all still here and there are still unbelievers. Is there any Biblical evidence that Satan/Lucifer had taken human form?
I would think that it depends on your definition of Satan.

Are you going with the pre-fall Lucifer, than yes. Seeing that Lucifer means "light bearer" and he was the angel that brought knowledge, than sure. How can we assume there were plants in heaven? And wouldn't a more powerful psychedelic be logical in this case, than cannabis?
I think the construct of satan is really closely related to Christianity's fear of truth and freedom in general, so in that sense I would say that yes he is a toker. He is a path to gnosis that Christianity says you have no right to because their insecure God would be angry should you know as much as he does. Of course both of these figures are anthropomorphised constructs and probably more similar to the nightmares of virgin scribes than anything else. The sad thing is that people took their ideas as their own and now believe that alcohol is the kind of drug a good God endorses while weed is something satan would endorse... there is no limit to how absurd humans can be in their thinking. Ostritt, according to scripture, Satan is no more of a construct than Jesus. God (the Father) made him, not us.

I can also say that we (Christians) actually worship truth, and that Jesus came to set us (mankind) free from the law (found in the first 5 books of old testament, the pentitude) so I'm not sure you're explaining yourself well.

God isn't insecure, he is jealous.

While God may endorse wine, he frowns upon drunkenness throughout the bible. And how can God not endorse a plant that he created?

Please, don't judge God based on what you see in the world. His words can be twisted by men, through iniquity and confusion. In other words, what you see isn't necessarily what you get. The eyes aren't truly opened without the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Truth), which can only indwell a human once they are saved through believing in and orally confessing to the Gospel of Christ. :)

[Ostritt]

Just to clarify, I don't mean this as a personal attack on you (we've never even met!), just an attack on certain ideas raised in the last few threads that I feel strongly about.

I never said Jesus wasn't a construct as well. There seems to be a contradiction in your argument. You said God isn't insecure, but jealous. Then you said that the only way to for humans to be enlightened with the Holy Spririt's light isonce they are saved through believing in and orally confessing to the Gospel of Christ.

I would just point out that the idea that there is only one way to be 'saved', or even the idea that a deity would need or want us to be saved is a logical fallacy given the Christian definition of God. If God is Everything and God is perfect, then God must want nothing. Quite simply, why would Everything need or want Anything? To me it's just more anthropomorphising of something that is limitless in its love.

You also said Please, don't judge God based on what you see in the world. His words can be twisted by men, through iniquity and confusion. What I was saying (perhaps not as succinctly as I could have) was that the Bible we have now and the religion that grew up around it has little to do with the teachings of a man called Jesus. What about the gnostic scriptures? What about the fact that it was written hundreds of years after Christ? Not to mention the information that came to light after the dead sea scrolls etc. (Have you watched The Pharmacratic Inquisition?)

More importantly, it is my opinion that religion has never served our race, but has seperated us from knowing ourselves as God, the creators. Apart from the countless millions that have died in its name, the children who were raped in secret, I find it hopelessly and pathetically inept at answering even the most basic questions or teaching us how to live as a group of 6 billion individuals who each have a different model of reality.

You said that you worship truth, but with all due respect I don't think it's possible to do that if you are living under the limitations of someone else's words and ideas. There can be no limitations and no boundaries.


"Religion encourages you to explore the thoughts of others and accept them as your own. Spirituality invites you to toss away the thoughts of others and come up with your own." - Neale Donald Walsch

[dopefiend]

satan always struck me as more of a booze and cocaine kinda guy.

But without a shadow of a doubt, he's the best character in Paradise Lost, and many would argue that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was either cannabis or some form of psychedelic which shook Adam and Eve out of their blind faith in God's law and encouraged them to find their own truth.

[Manila_Housecat]

Just to clarify, I don't mean this as a personal attack on you (we've never even met!), just an attack on certain ideas raised in the last few threads that I feel strongly about.

I never said Jesus wasn't a construct as well. There seems to be a contradiction in your argument. You said God isn't insecure, but jealous. Then you said that the only way to for humans to be enlightened with the Holy Spririt's light is

I would just point out that the idea that there is only one way to be 'saved', or even the idea that a deity would need or want us to be saved is a logical fallacy given the Christian definition of God. If God is Everything and God is perfect, then God must want nothing. Quite simply, why would Everything need or want Anything? To me it's just more anthropomorphising of something that is limitless in its love.

You also said What I was saying (perhaps not as succinctly as I could have) was that the Bible we have now and the religion that grew up around it has little to do with the teachings of a man called Jesus.

. . .

More importantly, it is my opinion that religion has never served our race, but has seperated us from knowing ourselves as God, the creators. Apart from the countless millions that have died in its name, the children who were raped in secret, I find it hopelessly and pathetically inept at answering even the most basic questions or teaching us how to live as a group of 6 billion individuals who each have a different model of reality.

You said that you worship truth, but with all due respect I don't think it's possible to do that if you are living under the limitations of someone else's words and ideas. There can be no limitations and no boundaries.


"Religion encourages you to explore the thoughts of others and accept them as your own. Spirituality invites you to toss away the thoughts of others and come up with your own." - Neale Donald Walsch
I hope you don't feel I was trying to attack you! Nor do I feel attacked.

There is no contradiction; I'm stealing these definitions from M-W.com:

jealous - 1 a: intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness
insecure - 1: not confident or sure : uncertain

A part of God's law is that the remission of sin requires bloodshed. Before the crucifixion, there was only animal blood shed for this purpose. When God had enough, He sent His son to live perfectly on Earth and be slain. Now that perfect blood has been shed, anyone who believes is saved.

Given that we're all sinners, God doesn't need us; we need him. He has to call a man to the faith before it will happen. God loves us so He wants us to be saved. He also gave us free will to chose salvation or death.

God isn't everything, for there is evil in the world. God is in everything that exists, however, for that is the prerequisite for existence. God is creator, truth, and love.

When I said Jesus came to set us free from the law, that means religion. He doesn't need or want us to be religious, just humble enough to admit we're sinners, repent, believe, and confess. From then, His only "law" was: ... And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. (Mark 12:30-31 KJV) Which is why I said not to judge God based on what you see in the world. Religion is a social construct. His words can be twisted by men, thus "the religion that grew up around [the bible] has little to do with the teachings of a man called Jesus."

"Apart from the countless millions that have died in its name, the children who were raped in secret..." For example do you really think that this would have happened if the rapists and murderers were following Jesus' commandments above?

You "find [religion] hopelessly and pathetically inept at answering even the most basic questions or teaching us how to live as a group of 6 billion individuals who each have a different model of reality," but I think Jesus' commandments answer these questions quite well! :)

satan always struck me as more of a booze and cocaine kinda guy.

But without a shadow of a doubt, he's the best character in Paradise Lost, and many would argue that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was either cannabis or some form of psychedelic which shook Adam and Eve out of their blind faith in God's law and encouraged them to find their own truth.

Haha! booze and cocaine! that's rich.

Lol, I have thought that the forbidden fruit might have contained acid or something!

Adam & Eve couldn't have had blind faith in God's law, though; it wasn't even given until well after the fruit was consumed! And the truth they found wasn't their own, it was everyone's - including God's! ;)

Peace and Blessings!

[Ostritt]

Obviously we're going to have trouble debating if you are taking the words of the gospels (the fraction of gospels that were entered into the bible) as the word of God, or somehow more valid than your own and our own ideas. I'll just give some more thoughts for consideration based on your last post.

Commandments themselves imply imperfection, imply that God needs us to act in some kind of way like a father. What kind of parent would want his children to worship him, not to explore themselves to the fullest? Also, what kind of parent would punish his children if they acted in a certain way when she herself put them in that situation? A really terrible parent. More specifically, a really human parent.

If entheogens have one common theme, apart from a universality of entoptic phenommena and entity encounters, it is the revelation that all moral and cultural systems are parochial, relative, imperfect. The only thing that has any validity imo is the truth of an individual and their right to find that truth in whatever way they see fit, as long as it allows others to do the same. Freedom is a lie if it isn't absolute. Have you considered that the ten commandments, for example, aren't commandments at all? Doesn't it make more sense that they are guides in finding your own enlightenment? I don't think it's "Thou shalt not kill" or be damned for eternity. It's "when you reach a certain level of awareness, you will not kill other beings because it will be antithetical to who you are."

Imagine if I took a baby, placed it in a disgusting, diseased ghetto and had crack heads adopt him. The child grows up in this environment, without any love or enlightening words. Then, one day it robs someone. Does it make sense to doom this child to an eternity of suffering? Of course not, it's absurd, because in the same situation anyone would do the same thing Any system of thought which seeks to gloss this over and that clings to the fear-based and reactionary idea that those who wrong us need to be punished rather than rehabilitated betrays itself as spurious instantly.

The god present in the Old Testament is both jealous and insecure using your definitions. How is a choice between salvation and death free will at all? Don't you see the screaming contradiction in this? If you don't mind me asking, have you had a psychedelic experience? I really don't mean that in a mean way or as an attack, I just want to understand how you've incorporated these ideas into your life after taking an entheogen. Actually it kind of fascinates me! Of course your reality is just as valid as mine even if I don't think it encompasses the true nature of things. I'm just curious as to your entheogenic experiences in the past, if you don't mind sharing them (or a bit of them) Peace!

[Manila_Housecat]

God's not a human, He's jealous though, and He created us for His own glory and honor. Humans, on the other hand, are created in God's likeness, so it's perfectly logical for you to see that connection. I don't think there is anything in scripture barring introspection or exploration. It does say for us to be productive, thought.

I agree that "the revelation that all moral and cultural systems [as social constructs] are parochial, relative, imperfect." However, the moral absolutes handed down from God are perfect and not relative. How can any healthy person argue with "Love thy neighbor as thyself"?

I also believe that the freedom we can receive from Jesus is absolute.

Once perfect blood was shed, the law (which ultimately could not be kept by man) was effectively repealed. Crack heads and ghettos didn't exist until long after the ten commandments were abolished, if you will, by Jesus. This situation is possible but "Thou shalt not steal" is not a factor in determining the child's final destination - heaven (salvation) or hell (death, "eternity of suffering").

How do you find God to be insecure or uncertain?

Free will isn't defined by the choices we have to make, but by our right and ability to chose of our own accord. One must use his free will to chose whether or not to be saved; that's the ultimate choice. The consequences don't force us one way or the other, thus hell exists for those who turn their back on the truth. If one hasn't heard the Gospel before they die, I don't think they have to make the decision, now do they?

I've only had cannabis and mushrooms. I haven't incorporated these ideas into my life after taking an entheogen. These truths have become clear to me, however, through receiving the Holy Spirit, and the use of entheogens, which amplified the profoundity of the truth for me.

[crowley666]

Totally agree with Ostritt (as is nearly always is the case). What kind of free will involves salvation or death? Yes, if there was absolute proof in God's existence then you can see the logic of choosing salvation but it's not much of a choice is it......the equivalent of choosing a million pounds are swallowing cyanide! But what makes it far sillier is that if there is a God, he muddies the water so much and plants so much evidence to the contrary about his existence that (IMHO) is tantamount to cheating and fooling people into making a wrong choice. If that entity exists I have no respect for it as it embodies the very worst in human traits.....bullying, arrogance,ruthlessness, dishonesty...... if he was "honest" then he would provide evidence of his existence..........(s)He is just so underhand. If he wants us to respect our neighbours maybe he should live by his own rules and treat his creations with the same respect!
Another of my problems with christianity (going slightly off the point) is why the church does not advocate that people have the right to experiment with drugs.......not taking a stance that they agree with drug use but acknowledging that people should be allowed to use their free will (granted by God) whether that leads them to the "right path" or not. After all...if everything was made by God then it was put there for a reason.

[Ostritt]

Full on. I'd just like to add that I do actually believe in 'God', but all I mean by that is that I believe in myself as I believe we are all one and therefore all comprise God. The fact that thought controls matter and also the indescribable beauty of the universe suggests to me that we are here not to appease a deity but to know ourselves as the deities. Why would you want to live any other way? Manila, I don't mean this offensively, but why do you let other people tell you how to live? Why let virgins and paedophiles tell you that your sexuality is impure, why let people and scribes who are/were just as confused as you construct your cosmology? It makes me sad, just as I'm sure it makes you sad that you think I'm going to be damned for eternity (what would that teach me?) for thinking for myself.

Also just to underscore a contradiction in your last post Housecat:

I agree that "the revelation that all moral and cultural systems [as social constructs] are parochial, relative, imperfect." However, the moral absolutes handed down from God are perfect and not relative. How can any healthy person argue with "Love thy neighbor as thyself"?


You said you agreed with me that all moral and cultural systems (I meant including all religious doctrine) are relative. Then you said that moral absolutes exist. This is a contradiction in terms. There cannot be any absolutes if you agree that "good" and "bad" are only labels we give to things. These labels change every moment. What is labelled as genocide in one person's reality is an act for the greater good in another. We create these morals ourselves; the only truly valid thing is "what serves us given who we say we want to be?" Obviously if we want to be fear and suffering then genocide serves us. If we want to be love, limitless and ever expanding then it doesn't. Human nature, despite what cynical people may try and tell you, is love and not hate. It's our culture and our religions that tell us we are unable to live peacefully (we did it for 25,000 years before civilisation started)

As far as the second part of that comment, I would ask how can any healthy person accept that idea without first analysing it and seeing if it serves them personally? Accepting it insantly and unquestioningly seems far more damaging to me than reviewing it first.

By the way if anyone agrees with the above I would suggest reading the Conversations with God trilogy, it really helped me to express what I have always felt in a language that is clear and understandable.

Crowley, I'd say the church doesn't advocate the use of psychedelics at least because they elucidate the power and limitlessness of the individual. Once you have received the message that you are the one creating your reality, I think most people find it difficult (or very undesirable) to let someone else tell them they have to follow whatever paradigm is promoted by a book or priest or cult leader. Obviously it is possible to take entheogens and strengthen your conviction to these dogmas because you choose to make them your reality However, I'm not convinced that you could ever really have a peak experience because you'd be fighting against it, unwilling to surrender lest your paradigm be crushed. But that's what it's all about :D

[crowley666]

I fully realise WHY the church don't advocate drug use (and by that I mean ALL drugs not just psychedelics) I just find it amusing and quite hypocritical that they spout about free will and then support the blocking of people to truly make that choice considering their claims that God has made everything.
Fully agree that we make our own reality, the sad thing is that even if everybody realised this, there would still be some that would prefer others to do their thinking for them.

[Ostritt]

Yea it's kind of like watching a group of insecure children playing in a park, except millions do what they say :eek: I'm not sure that I agree that there will always be people who want other to do their thinking for them...actually probably a few, but I think the number could be so low as to be insignificant. It's my hope that we develop a new paradigm in which the very idea of someone doing the thinking for you is abhorrent (like it is for us) and that faced with the limitless possibilities inherent in the existence people would lose their fear and dive head first into life the universe and everything... I really think it's all about awareness and education. Maybe we should do what the Tungus shamans did and go door to door with shrooms and guide people through trips this christmas! We'd be like jehova's witnesses, except cool. Also we'd be wearing crazy psychedelic rave gear instead of nerdy suits... sweet.

[The Salvia Kid]

[QUOTE=dopefiend;8680]satan always struck me as more of a booze and cocaine kinda guy.

Fucking Hell?

Ah now I see!

[crowley666]

Ahh...Ostritt we finally disagree on something!! I actually think there are a lot more people than you can imagine who don't really want to think for themselves....maybe even the majority! This could explain the devotion so many have to a parent god who dictates rules they must follow right through to the people who never question anything they read in tabloids or hear in the news even when contradictions are staring them right in the face in everyday life. How many people have you met that when asked something serious make the reply that it is either too early/ too late in the day to discuss these things..... for these people there is never the right time. There are a hell of a lot of people who want limited options and choices happy to believe that is everything......the truth could be far too frightening for a large chunk of the population.
A rather cheesy example (but still valid) is the guy in the Matrix who knows the truth but would rather return to the lie and revert to ignorance.

[Ostritt]

Hey Crowley, just to clarify what I meant:

I definitely agree that most people are, in their present state of awareness, afraid of thinking for themselves. However, I do think that if shown their own potential and the spuriousness of the systems they follow, most would choose freedom rather than slavery to the ideas of others. The entheogenic experience may be the most effective way to show them this choice. At the moment, without the proper guidance I think you're right and the prospect of being their own creators would be too much for a lot of people to handle. This isn't to say that it is human nature to not think for yourself... actually I would argue that it's the exact opposite. Agree, disagree?

[crowley666]

There has been a huge increase in the amount of information about psychedlecs that has become freely available over the last thirty years and yet I would say there has not been an increase in users, possibly a decrease (taking into account population growth). Why is that?
Ostritt, am I right in saying that you already had doubts about society/reality before you took a psychedelic substance? I know I have always questioned things and these substances just compounded the fact that my suspicions about consensus reality were correct. It doesn't exist! I think this applies to virtually anybody who has taken these substances. That they were already at odds with the norm and seeking an alternative to what society is offering up.
While I admire your evangelical glee I do believe that to achieve your dreams would have to involve the whole of government and the media having to be behind it which is highly unlikely ever to happen and even if it did it would take decades rather than years to deprogramme society. I still think even then that there would be large groups that clung to their old beliefs.
If I could use Christianity as an example........there is plenty of information, be it in books, on tv or on the internet providing information to question the existence of God, yet........there are still a large amount of Intelligent people who refuse to take this information and challenge their own belief systems even though, if they came to the conclusion that christianity was not true, accepting the non existence of the Christian God would not neccesitate a complete underpinning of their current reality. But even that is too challenging for a lot of people so why on earth would these people want to take something that would upset their world view even more so? Too many people in our society are happy for all their decisions to be taken out of their hands and decided on by others. Our society has more people bothered about catching an episode of Eastenders than exploring their own selves and beliefs.
Unfortunately I think too many people want to be part of the herd for that is were they feel safe even if that means wallowing in ignorance.
I am sorry....but unless society pushed for it, which is not going to happen in our lifetime, we are always going to be in the minority.

[Ostritt]

OK so let's just give up! We can be the first generation to say it's too hard and let our species die. What you just wrote is (one of the few things) I think is wrong with our community. If you hold a negative attitude then you will get a negative result. I think I have a responsibility as a member of the top 2% of comfortable and educated people on the planet to do as much as I can to help the paradigm shift. I would rather die than simply say it's too hard, I really mean that. One thing that entheogens and meditation have taught me is that nothing is impossible. Think of the hundreds of individuals throughout history who have ushered in astounding paradigm shifts. They never would have given up, ever, or lost faith in humanity and I don't think we should either.

I don't mean this offensively, but I think that type of negativity is self-indulgent. It's easy. It's easier than facing the colossal task we have ahead of us. Isn't that similar to letting someone else think for you because it won't rock your foundations too much? Sorry I don't want to sound belligerant but this is of fundamental importance to me. And I don't buy the fatalist view that when I get older I'll be more cynical. That's what you get told by people who gave up themselves... people lose the passion of youth and then look back on it as naive because they know deep down that this is easier than admitting they failed themselves, they never truly expressed who they really are. (This isn't directed at you, I actually don't know how old you are!) We create our realities individually and as a race. If everyone says it's too hard then it will never happen. If everyone believes, actually knows that we can create Eden again then it will be so.

[crowley666]

Bit of a misunderstanding there! I'm not for giving up on people and if I can introduce people to a new way of thinking I will........I tried with a mate of mine in Amsterdam a few months ago and while at one point he was up for it and is an intelligent person whom I think will benefit from the experience.....he backed out at the last minute. This guy trusts me and regards me as intelligent, but in the end all the disinformation and media scares had their effect and he pulled out.
Ostritt.....I am not for giving up at all and in my opinion even if one person can be made to realise the benefits then great. and that's better than none......and I can assure you I still proclaim the benefits when I have the chance....BUT.....I still think there is a large group of people who don't actually want it. Dopefiend himself said that there were some relatives he would not tell about his cannabis use........because (if I'm not mistaken) no matter how well they regard and trust him and no matter how intelligent they think he is....they will still probably revise that opinion because of their programming by society. No matter how hard you explain to some people (and it's more than you realise) they won't listen and suddenly believe you are some sort of smackhead burglar!
So Ostritt......don't give up the fight.....I know I won't but be prepared to win minor skirmishes in your lifetime rather than win the war.
Unfortunately some people have all the crap programming rooted too deep but I'm all for encouraging those who don't!:)

[crowley666]

In fact...Ostritt.....can you tell me what the garden of Eden you picture is like?

[Ostritt]

Ok cool yea I think I did misunderstand a bit. However, I would say that eventually (maybe not in my lifetime) with the right education of our children, we can shift the paradigm. Education is key. I definitely agree that it would be naive to think if I gave MDMA to every person on the planet all wars would stop (maybe a few would!)... it's simply too difficult (not impossible) to de-program years of ideology in billions of people within a few years.

However, I would still not rule out the possibility that in my lifetime the world could be a significantly fairer and cleaner place... I think we'll all have our part to play in creating that.

As far as my Eden, it would be a place where highly evolved people are able to regulate their own behavior and there is no need for laws of any kind. People would be free to do whatever they wanted and money would not exist because, with this self-regulation, everyone would be willing, actually happy to do what they needed to keep the society going when it was asked of them. We would live in harmony with the planet, wouldn't wear clothes except for warmth, all the other barriers and fears would be faced and destroyed. Art and exploration would be the heart of this world - or whatever people wanted the heart to be. There wouldn't just be 5 kinds of mullet, there would be hundreds, thousands perhaps. 'Lost' would never go on 6 month breaks, there would be no censorship etc. You get the idea :rolleyes:

Obviously this relies on everyone having their own personal paradigm shift. It has to come from within each individual.

[Ostritt]

Hah sorry that other post was quite emphatic! I get carried away sometimes, sorry! :o...also my dealer won't pick up!:mad: