Meditations on Meditation

[Ostritt]

The meditation "vs" entheogen debate is something that really fascinates me and I've enjoyed the debates, with interesting stuff coming from all sides. However, while everyone here obviously knows a lot about entheogens, there seems to be less info on meditation floating around the forums. I'm not really an expert, but there's something I've picked up on that I wanted to clarify and see if other people who meditate have anything to add.

Everyone is probably familiar with the idea that entheogens bring you to the desired state of consciousness far quicker than meditation. Actually I probably never would have started meditating without a psychedelic experience, nor would I stop taking entheogens now that I meditate.

Why is this? Because they are two seperate experiences, not just two seperate ways to achieve greater awareness. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling lots of people view meditation as a prolonged tool that may or may not yield results at some point. However, in my experience it's different. It's not really about forcing yourself to meditate a certain amount of hours a day, hoping to have an unexpected breakthrough sometime. For me it's about silencing your mind and feeling that same energy that runs through you when you take an entheogen. The difference is that you can do this every day, it's a bit like going into a quiet, warm sauna and being hugged by loving energy for however long, then stepping back into the snow storm. Obviously you get better at it and the sauna grows larger and larger (I didn't really think this metaphor through but I've committed myself now) and the energy grows more and more intense with time. I've described it to friends as "like taking half a pill every morning".

So basically what I'm trying to explain is that, pardon the cliche, the journey is the destination. It's about feeling how amazing it is simply to "be". I wrote this because I often get the feeling that people reckon it is the equivalent of a really slow acting entheogen that may or may not work somewhere down the road. In my experience it's a way to expand your awareness on a daily basis instead of connecting with an entheogen to do so. Neither is better or worse, and neither is more or less efficient. It really depends on your own reality and what fits into it best.

Terence McKenna often spoke about how people would smoke 1 joint, or have a just above threshold psychedelic experience and then claim they had drug experience, glad they wouldn't really have to change their paradigms in any way. For me (please call me on this if you disagree), for a discussion on meditation vs. psychedelics to have any validity, both parties have to be familiar with both experiences, ie have had a psychedelic experience they would label as profound and have learned a meditation technique well enough to be able to meditate at will- this only takes a few weeks. Does anyone reckon this is too harsh? Maybe this would imply a lot of other limitations in philosophy and debate in general, but it's just how I feel we would get the most out of the debate.

It would be really interesting if an intrepid psychonaut who doesn't practice a non-entheogenic consciousness expanding technique (meditation, trance dance, drumming, fasting etc.) were willing to do an experiment, learn one of these techniques well and let everyone know what they thought after a few weeks (or however long it takes). Any volunteers?

[TirikiteToker]

I agree! It would be great to hear that Max was going to give meditation a try. :-)

Terence McKenna often spoke about how people would smoke 1 joint, or have a just above threshold psychedelic experience and then claim they had drug experience, glad they wouldn't really have to change their paradigms in any way. For me (please call me on this if you disagree), for a discussion on meditation vs. psychedelics to have any validity, both parties have to be familiar with both experiences, ie have had a psychedelic experience they would label as profound and have learned a meditation technique well enough to be able to meditate at will- this only takes a few weeks.

So I recommend not a one-day workshop but a 10 day Vipassana retreat! If you give yourself over to the experience, you are bound to have interesting results.

[Ostritt]

Nice one. I'm also reading Supernatural at the moment, it's fucking great! My favourite bit so far is how he completely demolished those two scholars (Bahn + someone I think) who disagreed with Lewis-Williams' theory and are quite obviously retarded conservative shitheads. It was probably the most brutal academic raping I have ever witnessed. I think it gave me a semi actually...

[max_freakout]

a question for meditators, is 'silencing the inner voice' an act of will?

i have pitifully little experience of trying to meditate, but those few times when i have, i found it gut-wrenchingly frustrating, because the more i 'try' to silence that voice, the more it seems to come up with interesting little things to say, which lead me back into my normal train of thought

I ENJOY thinking!!!! Why would i want to stop thinking?



"I think, therefore i am"

[Ostritt]

That idea originally came from Augustine's "dubito ergo sum" (I doubt therefore I am), as in I can doubt my own existence, therefore I must exist. Meditation is about experiencing a level of consciousness in which (most people) experience very little doubt that they do exist, even though their minds are not actively thinking. Part of the idea is that your mind does not always serve you, or to be more specific you are not always in control of your mind. Meditation is a tool to learn how to control it. I look at it as silencing your mind so that spirit can speak. That metaphor really sums it up for me.

It is frustrating at first because you believe that your mind, which has been thinking non stop for your whole life, could not be silenced and indeed why would you want to because what is the alternative? Maybe an easier way to look at it is "concentration". To me they are really the same thing, instead of allowing that energy to work in the way its used to (a way that may not always serve you) you direct it the way you want it. Once you learn how to do it it's like discovering a muscle you never knew you had (very cliche but really the best way I can describe it) The resulting change in consciousness is impossible to describe with language, it would be like trying to describe what MDMA is like. I could say, well you understand yourself and the nature of your being more, you love everyone, dancing is great, but really that doesn't explain the experience. Imo only this subjective experience has value... You don't have to silence your mind for ever, just as long as you want to. Aside from what I would call "spiritual benefits" it's got so many psychological and physical benefits it seems a shame not to give it a (proper) go just for those. Also it's an amazing tool to use during trips...

[Xochipilli2012]

a question for meditators, is 'silencing the inner voice' an act of will?

i have pitifully little experience of trying to meditate, but those few times when i have, i found it gut-wrenchingly frustrating, because the more i 'try' to silence that voice, the more it seems to come up with interesting little things to say, which lead me back into my normal train of thought

I ENJOY thinking!!!! Why would i want to stop thinking?



"I think, therefore i am"

Wouldn't you rather have a choice?

Just because you meditate doesn't mean you stop thinking. But what meditation can offer is the choice not to think, and to just be.

Years ago, when I first started wearing red and orange...all the time (it was what we Osho sannyasins used to do), a woman in my college co-op housing confronted me during dinner about the "cult" I had apparently joined.

I tried to explain how most people were robots, functioning on auto-pilot most of the time, and that we didn't really experience the present moment fully. There was always some little person in our heads dishing out a running color commentary, or drifting off some place, reminiscing about the past, or dreaming about some imagined future, and therefore, few people were experiencing their lives as fully as they could. I shared why I thought meditation was important as it opened up space in our awareness, free from thought, and that being a sannyasin (Osho disciple/student) was my way of committing to putting deliberate energy into the process of "waking up."

When she heard the part about "not thinking" and just "being aware" (not the same thing), she strongly, and almost violently objected (she started raising her voice). She said "I like my mind! I think it's great we can think and do things like driving or having a conversation or a hundred other things at the same time. I'm a multi-tasking person." She said that as if she offered some sort of counter argument.

Meditation isn't about destroying our ability to think. We have to think in order to function in the physical world that we live in. We think to talk. We think to solve problems that sustain our existence. We think to exchange ideas and develop new ones. Thinking is great--in itself.

However, the problem is when thinking impinges upon our ability to be in harmony with the Universe and ourselves.

Ever been anxious Max, about anything? Ever notice how the mind and its thoughts can race out of control with myriad imaginings of dark scenarios, each one worse than the one that came before? How about jealousy? Ever been jealous, Max? And out of this jealousy, fantastic stories about your desired love-object sharing good vibes with someone else in such a way that it was a "problem" for you? Maybe later you learned that all the stuff you imagined was utter horse shit, but it felt real enough at the time you were thinking it.

In circumstances like that, wouldn't it be cool to know that you were not what you were thinking, but something more, so the runaway freight train of mind-fuck imagination never needed to leave the station? Oh sure, you might have still have feelings with an occasional "negative" thought attached to them. But what if you could watch them pass through you without clinging to them, and more, without one leading to another, and then another, and another?

Any time we get anxious about something, with an accompanying physical sensation that we might describe as "unpleasant," and when we are not in immediate physical danger--that's a mind fuck. That is thought, out of control.

Meditation doesn't mean we cannot think, or even enjoy thinking. In fact, people like Osho, Eckhart Tolle, Gangaji, Poonjaji, etc. all through the centuries argue that only by taming the tiger of the restless mind (my metaphor) will we be able to truly think creatively and dynamically, free of needless attachments to things that don't really apply in that moment.

Many people are so used to the "little voice in their heads," they assume that it is all that they are. It's an amazing thing to have the knowingness that it is only part of who we are, and that there is a deeper ground of being underneath it all, a huge ocean of consciousness that is powerful, fresh, vital, and rejuvenating...something we can tap into at virtually any time we choose, once we begin learning how.

Meditation is a way to begin experiencing this for ourselves, rather than just reading about it in a book, or on the coolest online forum this side of Alpha Centauri.

There are other ways, as well.

Remember--most any time you're feeling out of sorts and running a "story" in your head about it--this is the mind out of control. Your boss criticizes you at work, for example. Do you accept her criticism and resolve to apply yourself to do better, and then leave it at that? Or do you start worrying that maybe you're not good enough for your job, or wondering what other negative things she is thinking about you? Maybe you go further and think about losing your job and all the crap you're going to have to go through to find another one? Maybe you take it even further and imagine losing your house, or your girlfriend, or...or....or...." Mindfucks....all of them. And you didn't have to "go there." We don't.

A confession: I'm a lazy meditator. It's true. It's been years since I practiced a structured, daily regimen of some sort of meditation technique. And yet, I have enough practice that I bring quite a bit of awareness into my day-to-day experience. Also, not meaning to "make excuses" about my "laziness," but there are actual techniques that involve incorporating normal activities as meditation. The Russian mystic Gurdjieff described something called "self-remembering" that falls into this category. Structure meditation (for me, at least) has been very good, particularly in the beginning, for shaking lose the bits of dust, dirt, and grime on my consciousness. And truth be told, I'd probably enjoy it if I did more structure meditation than I currently do. But then again I would also enjoy reading more, really learning how to play my guitar, or how to speak French or German. Al menos estoy poquito capaz con el bonito idioma Español, pero es otro asunto. :p

What I'm slowly circling around to saying in that inimitable, overly-wordy Xochi sort of way, is that I still get bogged down with "mind fucks." But more and more I see them for what they are, most of the time--almost immediately, and they lose their power over me, frequently provoking laughter at the absurdity of it.

And yet, I still enjoy thinking as well.

But we can all enjoy not thinking. It may sound empty or cold, but it's really not. In fact, it can be the most beautiful experience in the world.

I have been in meditation halls, or even some cafe or bookstore, were someone simply invited all the people in the room to be silent for a few minutes, and feel the energy in the room. In my own silence, I was tasting that of others, and through that experience, there was a truly palpable sense of deep connection--something akin to that lovely feeling you get on MDMA when even that house mate or other "friend" that usually annoys you 90% of the time, becomes the most beautiful and appreciated person in the world in that moment. I'm not saying it was the same as being on E--with all the attendant psychic and physical phenomena, but that "connected" feeling seemed identical.

Enough for now.

[max_freakout]

That idea originally came from Augustine's "dubito ergo sum" (I doubt therefore I am), as in I can doubt my own existence, therefore I must exist. Meditation is about experiencing a level of consciousness in which (most people) experience very little doubt that they do exist, even though their minds are not actively thinking. Part of the idea is that your mind does not always serve you, or to be more specific you are not always in control of your mind. Meditation is a tool to learn how to control it. I look at it as silencing your mind so that spirit can speak. That metaphor really sums it up for me.

Really? Descartes was plagiarising St Augustine? :eek: Well that is news to me.

Actually that isnt really what Descartes said in the end, he changed it, and said instead that "i exist" is necessarily true whenever think it (it is an existentially self-verifiable statement), because he didnt want syllogistic logic to invalidate the certainty of the statement.

if that is true that you dont doubt you exist when you meditate, then why do buddhists insist there is no self?


It is frustrating at first because you believe that your mind, which has been thinking non stop for your whole life, could not be silenced and indeed why would you want to because what is the alternative? Maybe an easier way to look at it is "concentration". To me they are really the same thing, instead of allowing that energy to work in the way its used to (a way that may not always serve you) you direct it the way you want it. Once you learn how to do it it's like discovering a muscle you never knew you had (very cliche but really the best way I can describe it) The resulting change in consciousness is impossible to describe with language, it would be like trying to describe what MDMA is like. I could say, well you understand yourself and the nature of your being more, you love everyone, dancing is great, but really that doesn't explain the experience. Imo only this subjective experience has value... You don't have to silence your mind for ever, just as long as you want to. Aside from what I would call "spiritual benefits" it's got so many psychological and physical benefits it seems a shame not to give it a (proper) go just for those. Also it's an amazing tool to use during trips...

i can only give it a go if i work out how to do it, from what you said, meditating IS an act of will, but it is exerting willpower over a muscle/ability that you have never used before, so how do you first learn how to use it?

[max_freakout]

that is a wonderfully enlightening post xochipilli tvm :cool:


that first question 'wouldnt i rather have a choice' is incredible, i had never thought of it that way before, meditation is learning how not to think so that you have a choice of whether to think or not, i now realise that i lack this choice as i dont know how to meditate, the only time my inner voice ever stopped talking was during egodeath, but that was way too psychologically traumatic to be considered a 'choice', evben though i did choose to take the drugs

beautiful :)


but it doesnt answer my frustration, i tried to stop thinking whilst sitting cross-legged several times in the past, and it was just a big fat frustration, i found myself, after only a very short time, thinking about whether i was thinking or not, and thinking about how i would know when i wasnt thinking anymore, and so on. and it even seemed to be against me, like my own thoughts were conspiring to frustrate me, saying "haha you'll never be able to silence me mwahahaha!!!"

so what is the secret to silencing that voice?

[Xochipilli2012]

Actually I probably never would have started meditating without a psychedelic experience, nor would I stop taking entheogens now that I meditate.

Why is this? Because they are two seperate experiences, not just two seperate ways to achieve greater awareness.

Nice post, Ostritt!

I was pleased that Dan Siebert made a similar point in the C-Realm Podcast #64 (http://c-realmpodcast.podomatic.com/entry/2007-11-14T17_52_11-08_00). They are separate experiences with distinctly different aims. And as entheogens can open us up to a more expansive experience of consciousness, meditation can help the entheogenic explorer be more skillful and present with navigating through the imaginal realms. I'm saying that a psychonaut with some skill or practice with meditation is going to have a better time with their chosen allies.

I may be wrong, but I get the feeling lots of people view meditation as a prolonged tool that may or may not yield results at some point. However, in my experience it's different. It's not really about forcing yourself to meditate a certain amount of hours a day, hoping to have an unexpected breakthrough sometime.

It seemed that in the C-Realm #64 (http://c-realmpodcast.podomatic.com/entry/2007-11-14T17_52_11-08_00) Jan Irvin holds this same view, although he argues that meditation can be helpful. Most of the "meditation deniers" make this mistake--that the "goal" of meditation is some sort of mind-blowing DMT space, and as such it is "unergonomic." That's like saying going to the gym won't guarantee me a spot on People's hundred most sexy list for the year--so I shouldn't bother going to the gym. It's a false argument--I'm sure there's a latin name for it.

For me it's about silencing your mind and feeling that same energy that runs through you when you take an entheogen. The difference is that you can do this every day, it's a bit like going into a quiet, warm sauna and being hugged by loving energy for however long, then stepping back into the snow storm. Obviously you get better at it and the sauna grows larger and larger (I didn't really think this metaphor through but I've committed myself now) and the energy grows more and more intense with time. I've described it to friends as "like taking half a pill every morning".

Nicely put, Ostritt.


So basically what I'm trying to explain is that, pardon the cliche, the journey is the destination. It's about feeling how amazing it is simply to "be".

Precisely.

It would be really interesting if an intrepid psychonaut who doesn't practice a non-entheogenic consciousness expanding technique (meditation, trance dance, drumming, fasting etc.) were willing to do an experiment, learn one of these techniques well and let everyone know what they thought after a few weeks (or however long it takes). Any volunteers?

Tirikite Toker suggested that Max might be encouraged to do something like a 10 Day Vipassana retreat, rather than a one day workshop, or something like that. While I think this has great positive potential, there is also a possible pitfall. Max could hate it. Not everyone is suited for Vipassana. And there are plenty of stories of people who are "go for it" types who think "more is always better" who made such a retreat their first attempt at meditating--and they became embittered and decided that "meditation" wasn't "for them" when it may have been simply the wrong meditation for that time in their lives.

I think it would be worth a separate thread to discuss this further. I'll just leave you with this--there are hundreds of meditation techniques out there. A few will very likely resonate with Max Freakout, depending on his personality. In the "Osho thing" we don't promote or proselytize. People who are sincere seekers and connect with Osho's work will find him. But I will offer this--one of his "active" meditations like "Dynamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Meditation)," "Nadabrahma," "Kundalini," "Nataraj," "Mandala," (http://www.osho.com/Main.cfm?Area=Meditation&Language=English)* etc. might be ideal for someone like Max. They each come with their own music and consist of "stages" of activity and non-activity. If Max is interested, I can give details on the techniques and provide him with the music, if necessary.

*The people running Osho.com do not represent all Osho sannyasins, nor even a majority. If you want an explanation for this disclaimer, PM me (http://www.thegrowreport.com/Forums/private.php?do=newpm&u=80).

But...whether it's one of Osho's meditations or some other "technique," Max, and anyone else that might be interested in exploring meditation, should look around a bit and find something that resonates with them. There are some techniques that are widely accessible--hence their power and popularity. This is true for Vipassana. I didn't mean to downplay the beauty of this wonderful method. I'm just saying that it won't be for everybody.

Osho used to say that you should give a technique at least 3 days--if after three days it's not feeling right, try something else. (But the Old Man would also sometimes say 30 days! Cheeky bastard! :D)

Anyhow...

Much respect to Max, Tirikite Toker, and anyone else participating in this thread--and especially to Ostritt for starting it.

[Ostritt]

Hey Max, sorry I should have been a bit more pragmatic and a bit less philosophical. The ONLY way to learn the right technique for you is by sending €57.50 to my bank account, please find details in the PM I just sent you (don't forget you need IBAN for international transfers) After that you'll receive my Ostritt Padwa pamphlet, which will bring you to stage 2. After stage 2, should you feel you are ready, you will need to donate the small sum of €110 to the Ostritt Foundation For Spiritual Advancement . Then you'll be able to meditate within 5 - 10 working days. It's really quite magical :D

Nah as Xochipilli said, there are hundreds of different techniques and all you have to do is practice a few and see what works. I went to a Sri Chinmoy centre here in Dublin for free classes. Basically how they started was by trying a few different techniques, the one that worked best for me was staring at the flame of a candle and concentrating on my breathing. I had the same problem as you where the more I tried to stop thinking the more I thought. However, if you are directing your concentration onto one thing you trick your mind, give it a proper bitch slap and make it think it actually is doing something. 20 minutes of practice a day and in less than a month you will be able to meditate while walking down the street. Practice is the most important part by far.

To answer your bit about why Buddhists say there is no self, I really can't say I know much about Buddhist theology but I would say what they mean is there is no egoic self, as in everything is one and you are part of that. So when you meditate and know yourself as that energy, you have no doubt that you exist in the most profound possible way. That would be my guess, or at least that's what I believe.

Anyway I would be most impressed if you decided to give it a go... If possible I would suggest finding a group who don't have a strong ideology (not a stab at Osho Xochi, I really don't know enough about him to be dissing anything ;) ) as it is easier as a person who believes in entheogen use to go and simply learn a technique without people telling you that "drugs are bad, mkay" while you do it. What I did was learn the techniques from them and just practiced at home until I felt I could go on myself. So basically you'd only have to go to a few classes and you'd be cruising.

[London Eye]

Excellent thread Ostritt and brilliant answer Xochipilli.

Hey Max, how bout this. When I'm in Amsterdam, we check out a meditation evening somewhere (gonna look one up). Just one night and give it a try.

Personally, I think it's cool that you gave it a go yourself, but truth is, its better to get guidance from an experienced teacher and easier when you're in a room with others doing the same thing.

You will have explained to you the specifics, the basics and the roots behind what is termed the "monkey mind", the insistence of the mind to think even more once it realises that you are attempting to focus on one thing, ie the breath and that the mental chatter no longer has free rein.

I have often found that as I am just on the point of settling into a focused meditation a creative thought crops up, or I remember that I was supposed to get something from the shops that day, or any other number of thoughts come up to distract me from this original simple intention.

For example, just see if you can count your breath in out and then count quietly in your head the number one; in out and then count two. See if you can do this up to 10 without thinking of anything else. When you realise how difficult, how almost impossible this is to do, then of course it becomes a challenge. How is it that I cannot even count to 10 without being distracted? What is distracting me? My thoughts? Who's thoughts? Is the originator of these thoughts the same person who wished to count to 10 without distraction?

Sometimes I can see it for what it is and just observe it and let it pass. Other times I succumb, I say to myself, "no, this thought really is important enough to stop meditating." Then as soon as I stop meditating, I realise I have been had. The thought really wasn't that important. Who tricked me? My mind? Who's mind?

Rather than see this pursuit in terms of seeing that there is no self,see it rather as an enquiry into the nature of self. Am I my thoughts? Who is doing the thinking?

One aspect of meditation is about observation, observing the breath, observing thoughts, feelings, sensations, without judgment, neither desire nor aversion. The mind at first is like an unruly child that has been allowed control of the room for too long. Of course, when that control is wrested from it, it will resist and become even more agitated. But the mind is not the controller and meditation is an attempt to realise this. And with practice this becomes easier to do.

But it can be difficult, depending on your willingness to pursue it and, yes, there is a kind of paradox there, but go with it anyway, as the paradox is in the semantics of the words and the intellectual attempt to work it out. Experience it. Once again like Xochipilli, I have wavered from a daily meditation practice, preferring more recently the active meditation of 5 rhythms dancing.

But, I would like to get back to a daily sitting meditation practice as the sense of centredness and poise that I felt from this remains something that I recall vividly as one of the most positive periods in my life.

Rather than extinguish thoughts, it purifies thoughts. Rather than incessant mental chatter, thoughts become focused and balanced and arise seemingly naturally. It takes time, and the beginning may be difficult, but it's worth a try and the more you are attached to your thoughts the more you will get out of it.

If we can manage to do this this it'll be great, maybe even report our experiences on a podcast, but no compulsion of course. Hopefully we can find a gap in between the sampling of some of the local 'erb :p

Laters, The Seeker

[TirikiteToker]

Wow! This thread has taken off overnight!

Others have expressed views much more eloquently than I can, so I'm gonna give my perspective briefly:

When I did the 10-day Vipassana course, my biggest problems were boredom and that my mind became much more active and was filled with positive and exciting thoughts. But I kept plugging away, trying to return to the technique and eventually had wonderful results. That's why I encourage you to take some course longer than a day or two, because it takes time to sink into and start to be able to manage the technique. I have only tried Vipassana so that's all I can comment on. I liked the fact that it's "dogma-free" - it's just a matter of "here's the technique, give it a try and see how you go". And the fact that it's in a retreat situation, no talking so you're really on your own for the 10 days, very much like a Terence McKenna-style heroic solo trip. Eventually, if you keep trying to return to the technique, you'll get some results. Like I've said previously, around the 7th-9th days, the observation of my physical sensations started to get pretty trippy. I also liked the fact that payment is by donation, at the end of the retreat, so you can give what you like.

So the short response to Max's question on "silencing the inner voice" is you need to learn a technique which you can bring your attention to. This will take time and isn't something you can try just for an hour or so. Like riding a bike or surfing - at first you think about trying to balance, and you can't do it. But keep trying and eventually you stop thinking about it and just do it.

Here's a description of Vipassana from the organisation involved: http://www.dhamma.org/en/vipassana.shtml

[max_freakout]

it took me a good while to learn to ride a bike when i was a kid, i fell over many times, but i managed in the end


so i need a technique that is something like "meditation for people with little patience and a short attention span who have already been right to the centre of the vortex on psychedelics" that would be perfect :cool:

seeker im well up for that Amsterdam suggestion, but does it have to be in a group? the thought of sitting silently with a bunch of people trying to do something ive not been able to do before really terrifies me, given the frustration i have experienced on my previous attempts, i imagine myself getting really bored and just wanting to leave, but being unable to because of all the other people there, shameful to admit but i felt that way at the puja ceremony when Amma was in Holland last month, just really bored and restless and wondering how everyone else looked so comfortable

i am a lump

[TirikiteToker]

so i need a technique that is something like "meditation for people with little patience and a short attention span who have already been right to the centre of the vortex on psychedelics" that would be perfect :cool:I think you need to go into it without any expectation that you will or will not encounter anything in particular, perhaps approach it as you would a hypothetical new drug which has subtle and elusive effects, which you have to remain open to.

And once again, this is why I personally recommend a longer course. Eventually you'll be forced to get over that bored restless phase. During my 10 day Vipassana course, days 2-5 were the worst for boredom and wondering what the hell I was doing there. But even in that period - trying to meditate for 14 hours a day - there were glimpses of altered awareness. Glimpses not to be seized on though, because the act of seizing destroys it.

I think I've heard you recommend taking a high dose of psychedelics to overcome the ego and allow oneself to surrender to the experience. Low doses leave the ego partially there to fight and result in more discomfort. A meditation course is similar but on a different time-scale. The "dosage" of meditation is up to your own ability (and motivation) to focus on the technique. Keeping at it heroically for several days is like the "heroic dose" - eventually your ego will have to give in.

I've done a similar exercise playing music - 9 nights of non-stop practice in a dark room, from 9pm til dawn. Terrible boredom, sleepiness and physical pain were my main enemies during that, much like a meditation course. But there were wonderful fruits to be received when I allowed it.

[Ostritt]

I really like that idea of meditation as a gentle drug, nice image Toker!

[druidude]

Interesting thread

Just a few of my thoughts, I think it was Max who said that he has tried to sit down and tried to stop his thoughts and found it infuriating.

This is a common experience around meditation and really stems from the idea that the I is seperate from our thoughts.If you observe closely the thinker is not seperate from its thoughts they are one and the same thing.THE THINKER IS THE THOUGHT they are one and the same to seperate them and see them as seperate entities is wrong and causes conflict.So to try and stop oneself thinking is never going to work as you are creating internal conflict by such an approach.Really meditation is the antithesis of effort as meditation is the dissolving of the self it is the letting go of effort.

As long as there is this "I" trying to stop thought you will not get anywhere except frustation city.

[cereus]

a question for meditators, is 'silencing the inner voice' an act of will?

i have pitifully little experience of trying to meditate, but those few times when i have, i found it gut-wrenchingly frustrating, because the more i 'try' to silence that voice, the more it seems to come up with interesting little things to say, which lead me back into my normal train of thought

I ENJOY thinking!!!! Why would i want to stop thinking?



"I think, therefore i am"

I just wanted to comment a little on this

The goal of meditation is not to stop thinking, it is to start thinking clearly.

One thing I encountered when I set out to learn to meditate was the effect of trying to achieve some thing like silencing the inner voice. The more I tried the harder it was. It is when you stop trying you notice that you already is in the meditative state. Stop trying and just go with the flow just like on a heavy dose of shroomies is my advice. The ego or will is often a distracting force best put aside when serene moments of utter bliss watt you try to achieve.

I believe that meditation can be so many different things that it is very hard to describe to one that think he have not experienced the meditative state of mind. This is the reason that whole schools of meditation has arisen, and things like Zen and koan’s, you know the small poems that seems to make no sense.
I use meditation in a non traditional way I guess, and it comes from the reasons that I do meditate. First of meditation do not have to be done sitting down and silencing the mind, meditation may be don in any situation, wile working, playing music, dancing, or any other activity. And it may be done sitting down for the deep types of meditation. I did meditate even before I knew what meditation was, when I was a kid used to slip in to these still moments when all time seemed to stop and all focus was directed to the item of my momentarily interest, this I noticed when I did learn to meditate.

Why meditate?
• To prolong or enhance a psychedelic experience or to bring the wisdoms learned in the experience back to the mundane world.
• To bring something in to focus by cleaning the mind of the clutter of unnecessary thoughts, much like tuning in to a station on the short band radio.
• To release endorphins and other bodily chemicals
• To sharpen the mind, your tools need to be maintained and so do your mind.

It is easier than you think to achieve the meditative state of mind it just may be some thing different than you imagine. :)

[cereus]

it took me a good while to learn to ride a bike when i was a kid, i fell over many times, but i managed in the end


so i need a technique that is something like "meditation for people with little patience and a short attention span who have already been right to the centre of the vortex on psychedelics" that would be perfect :cool:



One suggestion comes to mind, salvia leaves.
One nice meditation I do is to chew a bunch of salvia leaves for half an hour vilest sitting in the lotus way on my magical carpet focusing on the intensions for the trip, the taste of the leaves and nothing else. And then lighting up a pre packed bowl of leaves (no extracts) and just sinking in to the vortex of the salvia experience. To me this brings on a repeatable experience not to strong but with great potential for healing and magic. And I always meet the salvia goddess.

Good luck in your endowers :)

[Ostritt]

Great posts cereus and druidude, thanks for contributing to the thread in such a positive way. I especially like the statement that 'the thinker is the thought' that you mentioned druidude, I understand perfectly what you mean but I've never actually verbalised it in that way, it's quite a succinct and powerful statement. Peace!

[druidude]

Thanks Ostritt

that understanding/observation that the thinker is the thought was a great seed change in my life.

I looked at Max's assertion re thinking particuarly "I think therefore I am" but conversly this also means " no thinking therefore I am not". If we ignore our body for a moment WHAT are we the psycological entity we refer to as "I" is our thoughts and the seed of those thought is memory which is always limited and conditioned..

Max talks about ego death does he mean the end of thought the psycological entity "I" and the start of direct experience.As long as there is still the observer commentating on the experience then the ego has not dissolved.

THe whole of meditation for me is the unravelling of the "I" so that direct perception with no censoring by thought occurs only in that is there true freedom from the known and an immersion in that which is not me....

peace

[Ostritt]

I raised that same point about the fact that there is still a perceiving "I" on another thread, and actually I think someone else mentioned it before I did. There are pages of ego death posts, I've kind of stopped because I said all I could say, I think the main thread was "psychonautica19 out now"

Also, your definition of what the I is is vital. For example if the "I" is Everything there is experiencing itself subjectively, then how can it ever die? Even if it is a "puppet" (Hoffman's term) then it is a puppet of itself.

[fortytwo]

Anyone who doesn't want to detach from their ego, simple stated, has never done so.

[druidude]

I raised that same point about the fact that there is still a perceiving "I" on another thread, and actually I think someone else mentioned it before I did. There are pages of ego death posts, I've kind of stopped because I said all I could say, I think the main thread was "psychonautica19 out now"

Also, your definition of what the I is is vital. For example if the "I" is Everything there is experiencing itself subjectively, then how can it ever die? Even if it is a "puppet" (Hoffman's term) then it is a puppet of itself.

You have hit the nail on the end re hoffman as I understand it (probably not very well!!!)
In "my experience" and to use those words is not descriptive of the fact but they will have to do.The self, that is my sense of I with all its experiences and cultural condtioning comes to an end by awareness and observation.The seeing is the doing it is the dropping away/letting go of effort/thought that dissolves the self.When I try to explain this actuality I feel I end up talking nonsense so.....particuarly at this point in the morning!!!

I will bow to one of the great thinkers of the 20th century as he can explain it far better than me.J Krishnamurti

Question "Is there a difference between the observer and the observed?

We are so conditioned, so heavily burdened with the past, with all our knowledge, information how can the mind be spontaneous? Can the mind observe its activity without prejudice, which means without images?
When there is a division between the observer and the observed there is conflict but when the observer is the observed there is no control, no suppression. The self comes to an end. Duality comes to an end. Conflict comes to an end.
This is the greatest meditation to come upon this extraordinary thing for the mind to discover for itself the observer is the observed."

[max_freakout]

Max talks about ego death does he mean the end of thought the psycological entity "I" and the start of direct experience.As long as there is still the observer commentating on the experience then the ego has not dissolved.


Ego death is an experience which permanently ends a naive assumption about the nature of autonomous control

Not so much the 'observer', but more like the common everyday 'sense' of freedom is suspended, because the mind has a 'realisation' during egodeath which leads it to thinking it has died/gone permanently nuts/reached the end of time. So the commentary temporarily ceases and unity consciousness is realized, the observer and the observed are seen to be one, and then at the end of the trip, the mind is dropped miraculously back into the same familiar, everyday 'sense' of freedom. Then the commentary starts up again, but the mind is radically transformed, and has now learned to be skeptical of itself.

So the ego is dissolved, miraculously reconstituted and reborn transformed, upgraded its operating system from 'egoic' to 'transcendent'

[Ostritt]

OK, that's the same as saying that you realise that the cultural conditioning that tells you you are seperate from everything or that you are a Bulgarian, whatever, is shown to be false. How does Hoffman jump from this to the assumption that we are all simply puppets of some cosmic puppeteer? Firstly fatalism is impossible to prove either way because you can just keep saying "well that was determined, it was determined that I would doubt this, it was determined that I would doubt doubting this" and so on. So really it is a completely mute point. What I don't understand is how ego death is going to help us create a paradigm shift on earth. If anything, saying "we're all puppets and have no control over anything" removes all personal responsibility. What's the point of even "realising this idea". Even if it were true it would have no impact on your life because even if you had the illusion of free will given by some strange entity then this amounts to free will as you cannot prove that this entity exists. So basically my question is, what does ED theory hope to achieve?

[max_freakout]

OK, that's the same as saying that you realise that the cultural conditioning that tells you you are seperate from everything or that you are a Bulgarian, whatever, is shown to be false. How does Hoffman jump from this to the assumption that we are all simply puppets of some cosmic puppeteer? Firstly fatalism is impossible to prove either way because you can just keep saying "well that was determined, it was determined that I would doubt this, it was determined that I would doubt doubting this" and so on. So really it is a completely mute point. What I don't understand is how ego death is going to help us create a paradigm shift on earth. If anything, saying "we're all puppets and have no control over anything" removes all personal responsibility. What's the point of even "realising this idea". Even if it were true it would have no impact on your life because even if you had the illusion of free will given by some strange entity then this amounts to free will as you cannot prove that this entity exists. So basically my question is, what does ED theory hope to achieve?

Imho egodeath theory is the paradigm shift ;), it doesnt 'help create' a paradigm shift, because it states implicitly that this paradigm shift already either is or isnt lying ahead of us in the future

The egodeath experience 'proves' fatalism, or at least it convinces the experiencer of it, egodeath theory is a theory about the egodeath experience.

There is perhaps no 'point'to making this realisation, except that this realisation is enlightenment, what is the 'point'of being enlightened?


To the uninitiated Christian, God is angry at humans for turning against him, to the initiated Christian, God admits everything is his fault, there is no responsibility if there is no free will

All ED theory can achieve is to formulate the truth about religious initiation

[druidude]

a question for meditators, is 'silencing the inner voice' an act of will?



No meditation is the antithesis of will.If one is using will power to silence the inner voice then we are back into the falsehood of the observer and the observed.You (will) are trying to silence your thoughts (you again) so inevitably it causes conflict as you are fighting yourself.

Only when this conflict is seen actually seen not through a screen of thought word or theory but direct experience does it come to an end.This is when the a state of bliss occurs my own observation of this bliss leads me to suppose that part of the feeling of bliss is due to the unravelling of the body.It is almost as though the "I" also fixes the body (eg reichs body armouring) when the I is no longer the body starts to unravel it seems that the body has a self righting mechanism reflexes, extensor muscle system that lengthens and expands the body as agaisnt the "i" which limits and contracts it.Weird huh??

[#8#]

I wanted to jump in on this -- it's an interesting thread.

I already posted some thoughts about mediation/entheogens here (http://www.thegrowreport.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=9111&postcount=12), and am interested in what Xochipilli and/or The Seeker have to say about techniques. Like Xochipilli, I've been an on-again off-again lazy meditator, sometimes very intense for months, other times just when I can. But yeah, it's not something you really lose. I can still sit down and after weeks off, come close to where I was last time I practiced regularly. It's an interesting thing with mediation; at least for me, there's a tendency where it seems almost effortless when I start up regularly again, and then I hit the difficult stretches, work through those to another point, and if I lay off, I'll start up again at that point. It's almost as if the mediation muscle doesn't really atrophy.

Anyway, just a quick warning, Max. A retreat would be good, but don't expect something right away. The experience is completely subjective; in my case, I didn't have any breakthroughs for about four months of regular, steady, daily practice, sometimes more than once a day. But once I did, like I said above, that muscle hasn't atrophied, which has been interesting (about seven years now). Furthermore, it's something I can return to almost at will and use to help center myself. I use certain meditative techniques sometimes when I'm exercising/running, driving, in a crowded cafe trying to work, before I sleep, whenever I feel it might be useful. And I usually feel it might be useful whenever I feel like I'm not properly focusing and need to re-set my head.

As far as silencing that inner voice, that's a trick. My teacher suggested being very calm about it. Everyone gets something stuck in their heads, random thoughts popping in, etc. That's the nature of the immediately conscious mind. That kind of quick-shifting attention is what helped our ancestors not get eaten. But unless you're being stalked by carnivores on some veldt or some back alley, that jumpy attention can be a hindrance. The idea, then, is to just acknowledge/accept that it exists, don't get frustrated, and return your attention to the practice at hand. Eventually, that becomes easier. But again, it only becomes easier with practice and patience.

On ego death, blowing out the I, and who's doing the perceiving: I don't think that it's quite right to say that meditation is about extinguishing the personality/ego per se, but more about extinguishing misperceptions about it that cloud clear thinking. So the self that perceives doesn't necessarily disappear, but undergoes a kind of expansion and shift in orientation. Maybe the best way I can describe it is it's something akin to the sense of connection to nature one might feel when taking mushrooms, or to energy one might feel on lsd. I remember feeling almost as if I could taste what rocks taste when on mushrooms, and that light seemed to reach out and touch my head while on lsd. I became part of my surroundings, and my "self" as I understood it underwent a transformation and expansion; the old self disappeared for a while. The blowing out of the self in meditation is something along those lines, where one feels more integrated with the surroundings.

One question on ego death: You (Max) stated it was enlightenment. How do you know it was enlightenment itself, and not the first steps toward enlightenment?

As for some techniques, here's a quick one that might get you started. You can do this sitting in a chair, on your but in lotus or half-lotus, in bed, wherever. Eyes are closed. It's for focus:

Take ten slow breaths in through the nose and out through the mouth
On the out breath, count to yourself "1," "2," "3," etc.
When at ten, start over
Do this for about three minutes to begin with. You want a watch. When you progress, you can go for five, ten, fifteen minutes, etc.
After that set of time, start again, but count in the in-breath. Do it for another three minutes
After that set, try to just sit there with the steady breathing for three minutes. Drop the counting.
Last three minutes: Focus on a point where you feel the breath -- as it enters the nose, the back of the throat, as it leaves the mouth -- pick one spot and make that the focal point.
When you find the mind wandering (you lose count/count too long, start focusing on a song in your head, start thinking about being hungry, etc.), just say cool, so that's there. Then go back to the breath.


This is a practice for focus, and there are many variations. It won't make you hallucinate any time soon, but it's quite refreshing and making it a regular practice can help you focus the mind outside of the meditation practice. For me, it's one of my preferred practices, and I'll do it up to an hour. You can reach very intense states of concentration through such a practice, and it's the one I've used when I've experienced something like leaving myself and a kind of physical/mental blissed-out state, which if I focused on, I'd lose. If I let it just sit there, that great feeling would maintain and intensify.

There's no bad meditation session, as long as you're reflecting on what's happening. Just forgive yourself for a wandering mind and come back to what you want to be doing.

[London Eye]

Just spent an enjoyable few days in Amsterdam, stoned and talking about ego death and many other things with Max. Unfortunately, being stoned, was not able to present a coherent enough response on the podcast to any thoughts on ego death and spirituality. So here goes again...

Several points which I disagree as far as ego death experience.

One is the presumption that there is no free will, that the ego-death experience shows that the universe is deterministic.

There is no proof for this, therefore this is just speculation. There is an equally strong belief in free will. There is no way of definitively saying either way. Anyone who states definitively either way, is mistaken IMO.

Secondly, the definition of the ego that Hoffman gives (or anyone for that matter) is not possible to define. Since the only thing that can define is the intellect and the intellect, at the very least, must be a part of the ego. So the ego cannot define itself, so once agin we are not sure what has died and what is still living in the psychedelic experience.

Mystics and scholars have debated the issue of free will for thousands of years without conclusion. Does not mean there cannot be a conclusion, but the evidence points to an inability for the intellect to conclude whether there is free will, since the intellect seems to be deterministic, but the being or consciousness is not necessarily so since it has yet to be defined by the intellect.

As far as the psychedelic experience causing ego death, it certainly can cause a very powerful crisis of identity, a merging of the internal and external realities, but whether this changes people, transforms them, permanently, is once again a moot point.

Anecdotal evidence, and suggestions from other psychonauts is that the experience can be monumental, but that it is soon forgotten once the identity of the person has returned. From personal experience I would agree. I have found far more permanent transformations in my identity via meditation and mind techniques like NLP, hypnosis and even affirmations repeated in alpha states.

I could say that in I lost all sense of who I was on many psychedelics, but I wouldn't say the experience altered who I was in the way that Hoffman seems to describe, so tyhen there is the implication from the Hoffman camp that "you haven't had ego-death then" which means that Hoffman is setting some standard for what he determines is an authentic ego-death experience, which is IMO a ridiculous claim to make.

My first ecsatsy pill opened up my world view in a more profound way than any psychedelic has ever done and throughout I was very conscious of my identity and place in the universe and how I related to it.

But even this exeprience faded and I had to live what I had experienced in those few hours, take the positives and LIVE them. Life alters and transforms all the time. That's change. And I can think of far more efficient and successful techniques for making radical changes in my identity and being which do not involve psychedelics, and there is an identity, a seeker, a me that is no one else's on this planet in this time frame. It may all be ultimately illusion, but that's not how we go about our lives, when we go to the shops to buy bread, is it?

Also, and I think this is so important...to ignore the dangers of psychedelics to a fragile mind is irresponsible and potentially very callous, since even one death or permanent mental breakdown is a tragedy and should be felt as such.

So, my consclusion is that I do not think the ego-death theory is either well defined (since it is ALL metaphysical conjecture) or particularly useful to the majority of people. It's one view. If it works for some people that's fine, but I suspect it will not find favour with many people since it is far too metaphysical and concentrating on one definition of an ineffable event, which, by definition, must be wrong.

We can be transformed in this everyday world (which may be all illusion, quantum physics blah blah - but is the world we all consider real, consensus reality) by using far more effective techniques to reach prfound changes to the identity.

For example, to try and get away from the metaphysical mind tunnels that jump on words like "reality" and say "ah but what's reality?"

What about training in a gym, yoga, tai chi losing weight, becoming stronger, more flexible, generally eating healthy food getting rid of allergies, symptoms of dis-ease? These are simple techniques for creating significant changes in a person's physical body, far more profound than a sudden loss of identity. Also, hypnosis techniques can improve a person's attitude to how they deal with events, phobias, habits and addictions. None of these need drugs, yet they all produce changes that can be objectively verified.

So to sum up, I still think that, while psychedelics used judiciosuly in ritualised setting for specific work, can be beneficial and on many levels can transform a person, it is easy to abuse and has the potential, the very real potential, if badly administered or if the person has an adverse reaction, to cause permanent damage, both psychological and physical and is thus not for everybody and NOT THE answer. More study is needed and professionally trained doctors, psychologists and neuro-scientists should be allowed free access to experiment.

As far as I can see, Pinchbeck, Leary, McKenna, Hoffman, or anyone who says they have THE answer should be treated with scepticism. No one has the answer, or rather we all have the answer and it entirely personal to each and everyone of us and cannot be tainted by another's perception of it, another person saying "look, this is what you saw/happened to you, isn't it?"

No actually, what happens to me can only be explained by association. I am not describing THE thing but associations I am making between disparate things that I notice.

I now think I need a week long yoga retreat in silence to get over the mushrooms and herbs and philobolloxing about such things ;):rolleyes::D

[druidude]

For anyone who is interested in meditation then I must mention hatha yoga.If you get a good teacher who is not about effort and achieving then yoga is a great way for meditation to occur spontaneously.The body is integral in all experience and all my profound meditative states have involved the spine "lining itself" up. I feel this particuarly in Psylocibin states its almost as though the body is lining the aerial of the spine up in order to receive the information.


Also with meditaton it is far more profound than seeing visions etc, in fact the first stage you may see your cultural symbols or conditioning but eventually these are discarded.It is more about being in a state of being of constant letting go so the mind is really awake and not fixed.

I should say that when I use the term meditaton, I do not refer to what is commonly referred to as meditation. Where we have a concentrator and a thing concentrated upon eg watching the breath or using a mantra where the point is that you have a controller, who is constantly controlling the thought process in order to bring it back to the focus of concentration.This in my experience is a dead end street you may achive some sort of quietness but this is a dulling of awareness rather than an expansion of awareness.It reafirms the false idea that the thinker and the thought are seperate.

Meditation is not to sit in a corner repeating a lot of words; or to think of a picture and go into some wild, ecstatic imaginings.

Quote again from Krishnamurti on how to meditate which puts across what I mean about meditation


Do not try to change your thinking. See why certain thoughts arise in your mind so that you begin to understand the meaning of every thought and feeling without any enforcement. And when a thought arises, do not condemn it, do not say it is right, it is wrong, it is good, it is bad. Just watch it, so that you begin to have a perception, a consciousness which is active in seeing every kind of thought, every kind of feeling. You will know every hidden secret thought, every hidden motive, every feeling, without distortion, without saying it is right, wrong, good or bad. When you look, when you go into thought very very deeply, your mind becomes extraordinarily subtle, alive. No part of the mind is asleep. The mind is completely awake.
end quote

[Xochipilli2012]

I now think I need a week long yoga retreat in silence to get over the mushrooms and herbs and philobolloxing about such things ;):rolleyes::D

Hey Brother London Eye / Seeker!

I'm about to crash for the night, but was pleased to read your post here. You made a lot of excellent points, and I am hopeful that your ongoing friendship with Max will permit a gentle, loving challenge to an apparently single-minded conviction about the supremacy of one particular theory over all others. But no matter what the outcome of that process, we can all benefit from it as we seek out our own "truth" and understanding, without having to rely on, or defer to, "that" of anyone else.

Lovely!

Time for me to stop philobolloxing myself and catch some zzzz's!

[London Eye]

I should say that when I use the term meditaton, I do not refer to what is commonly referred to as meditation. Where we have a concentrator and a thing concentrated upon eg watching the breath or using a mantra where the point is that you have a controller, who is constantly controlling the thought process in order to bring it back to the focus of concentration.This in my experience is a dead end street you may achive some sort of quietness but this is a dulling of awareness rather than an expansion of awareness.It reafirms the false idea that the thinker and the thought are seperate.

Meditation is not to sit in a corner repeating a lot of words; or to think of a picture and go into some wild, ecstatic imaginings.

Sorry, druide, while I agree with you on hatha yoga being a good technique, I find your description of mindfulness meditation very simplistic and wholly wrong.

Mindfulness meditation might start off as an act of will (so does hatha yoga or anything for that matter), but watching the breath and allowing thoughts to come up and observe them, as well as observing the observer are all part of the sitting meditation. There are many techniques and they all have the same object to help us achieve greater awareness.

There is a paradox between the desire for awareness and the fact that true awareness arises without desire, but that is in semantics (isn't that the problem of everythind we speak of?).

I have gained benefit from meditation like vippassana, mindfulness, metta bhavana (which is about generating feelings of positive emotions) as well as yoga and chanting. All can be of benefit.

Would like to read more of krishnamurti. I do remember he put forward the idea that meditation does not have to involve sitting quietly, doing nothing, but that is not to say that it has no value or that it cannot be arrived at in this way. It's a personal choice ;)

[London Eye]

Hey Xochipilli2012!

Good to hear from you. Yeah, it's Sunday morning here, but still recovering from effects of Amsterdam :D That last smoke of white widow was the best smoke, isn't that always the way :rolleyes: we'll see how the debate goes, but it's all philobolloxing anyway. more important that we treat each other well and improve our way of living for the benefit of all.

Amen and Ahhhwomen!

chat soon, the seeker

[druidude]

Sorry, druide, while I agree with you on hatha yoga being a good technique, I find your description of mindfulness meditation very simplistic and wholly wrong.

Mindfulness meditation might start off as an act of will (so does hatha yoga or anything for that matter), but watching the breath and allowing thoughts to come up and observe them, as well as observing the observer are all part of the sitting meditation. There are many techniques and they all have the same object to help us achieve greater awareness.





You are probably right but in my experience as others have said in this thread most people who try meditation do so using a technique whereby the attention is coerced into a point of concentration a narrowing of awareness to a point.This inevitably requires effort which leads to frustration and giving up meditation as a difficult thing that takes years to accomplish.

I too not really knowing what meditaton was, was also instructed in these methods and techniques and inevitably got nowhere.It is impossible to control our thoughts by an internal controller as they are one and the same thing.

yet I agree with your description of mindfulness meditation where the onus is on observation a passive awareness of thoughts with no coercion just seeing the thoughts come and go.For me this ability to observe without censoring without trying to cajole or control is the first step in allowing access to the depths of our being whatever that may be.



There is a paradox between the desire for awareness and the fact that true awareness arises without desire, but that is in semantics (isn't that the problem of everythind we speak of?).



Ain't that the paradox


Would like to read more of krishnamurti. I do remember he put forward the idea that meditation does not have to involve sitting quietly, doing nothing, but that is not to say that it has no value or that it cannot be arrived at in this way. It's a personal choice


Yes meditation is not something that is practised in a darkened room in a tibetan monestary but in our daily life in our relationhips, observing the rain falling off the leaves etc.That could be where its true value lies.

[druidude]

more important that we treat each other well and improve our way of living for the benefit of all.



r

Couldn't agree with you more

[#8#]

Seeker, question:

I've been following this conversation, and am just not convinced that the end-point of mediation and the end-point of psychedelics are the same. But I do think they can be mutually supportive. It seems you have experience with both, so I'm wondering if I can get your response (or anyone else who has experience with both).

I have experience with both. I'm no bodhi, but I've had something happen through meditation, something very difficult to describe (and a crazy story about it; my teacher was meditating in the room the third time I experienced this, and when we finished, he turned to me and said "Something happened to you; care to talk about it?" Blew me away; I'd never talked about it before to anyone because I didn't know what was going on. I still don't know how he knew.)

I think my past experience with entheogens helped prepare me for what I've experienced through meditation. I just wrote to Ostritt about this: It seems like the entheogens unlocked a door that the meditation took me through. But it seems entheogens unlock all kinds of doors, yet they can't take you through all the doors they open (only so much time, focus, etc.).

At least in my case, the entheogens unlocked a door that I might have picked through years of steady practice, but who's to say. However, the entheogens couldn't take me to the other side of that doorway; that was meditation's place.

Has this been anyone else's experience?

[Xochipilli2012]

...more important that we treat each other well and improve our way of living for the benefit of all.

Brother Seeker,

I finally got caught up with reading the entire thread so far, and I've been really impressed with everyone's contributions. Beautiful!

Something about this last quote of yours brought something to mind that I hope will add something positive to this marvelous discussion.

Basically, it's the idea that inspiring others to join us in "psychedelic thinking" needs to be an appeal to the heart, not the head.

A person can have all kinds of slogans on their car or t-shirt about saving the planet, working for peace, creating a more just world, etc., but if they have an unpleasant nature--if they are "mean" or "unloving," no one is going to be interested in anything they have to say. It's like a person violently screaming "Peace NOW! Goddammit!!!"

It's almost cliché, but we need (IMHO) to "be the change we wish to see in the world," without undue regard for whatever our preferred methodologies for achieving a more expansive consciousness might be. If we could each of us transform ourselves on an individual level in a positive direction, even modestly, those around us will begin to take notice and a few will want to know more.

Whether you practice meditation, NLP, or drug-inspired EgoDeath, if it is truly "working" for you, the proof if its efficacy will be you. So when someone asks you why you are so positive, creative, or powerful, and you respond with something along the lines of "the sacred mushroom teachers, man!" (as but one example) they may think twice before dismissing you as a kook. The same can be said for meditation, hypnotherapy, yoga, or whatever other personal transformation trip you might be on.

I've said in the past that I don't worry too much about the potential negatives of Hoffman's EgoDeath theory because it will probably never achieve very wide appeal as it lacks "heart." For me it's a very cold, arbitrary way of viewing existence which is too challenging, even for smart people, to understand, much less accept. It's great that it works well for Max and Michael Hoffman, and has inspired some very interesting discussions here--but on it's own cannot take all of us to the "Promised Land." (But maybe some of us, hmm?? :))

More importantly, intellectual, rational argumentation, that is--appealing to people's heads, will probably not convince many people that they should live any differently--whether one argues for Entheogenically-inspired EgoDeath, or Vipassana-inspired Satori.

On the other hand, if any one of us puts in the necessary effort to create positive changes in ourselves and how we live, a "ripple-effect" can occur. Starting amongst ourselves here first, positive change will build momentum and resonance, thereby spreading to the wider world.

This very thread suggests that we are already doing this!

These discussions are inspiring personal explorations that may not have occurred otherwise. We are sharing knowledge and experiences that inspire us to expand our personal horizons, question the way we are living, and explore new directions, thus enriching ourselves as individuals, and by extension, those we come into contact with.

With the focus on "treating each other well, improving the way we live, for the benefit of all" we will be doing just that.

Let's help each other become the change we wish to create in the world!

[London Eye]

Spot on as ever Xochipilli and *8* yes, my experience is the similar to yours in the fact that I see entheogens as showing me amazing things, teaching me on a very profound level and I see meditation, or any of the physical/mental work like NLP, yoga etc is kind of like the actual journey, but also the preparation for arriving at the place perhaps that the entheogens also showed. Different for different people, but I do get the sense that after entheogenic use the important thing is to bring the experience into your everyday existence as completely as possible.

I don't do this as often as i'd like, so i can have a really mind-opening smoke or mushroom trip and then go for some more before even processing what I have experienced from the altered states. I also believe that the processing, the integrating can be non-verbal, as mentioned with things like yoga, dancing, singing, playing music, writing, painting as long as somehow you are physically expressing internal drives, which seem to me are aching to get out and express themselves/be expressed after an entheogenic experience.

Have fun and, yes, be the change you wish to see :)