The role of psychedelics in modern and future societies

[psygnisfive]

What do you think the role of psychedelics and the visions they provide should be in modern society and in future societies? Should it inform our social and political worlds, our science and technology, or should it be just a tool for personal insight and growth? Should we adopt the visions as fact outright, after one acid trip or dmt revelation, or should we proceed with caution before assuming it's all real? Do we treat them as mere tools to be bent to our will used as a means to an end, or do we retain the "traditional" uses and customs and allow them to tell us what to do with them? And most importantly, regardless of your answers, why?

[max_freakout]

Terence Mckenna:

"in the psychedelic society, everyone will have the right not to use psychedelics"


:cool:

[psygnisfive]

Okay... lol

But I mean, should we promote their use? Should we change our social orders based on the insights we get? Or do we consider them mere recreational? Are they important, or are they merely fun?

[London Eye]

Psychedelics are extremely important as far as psychological healing. In the US the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, or MAPS (http://www.maps.org/), has been carrying out various medical research into a variety of psychedelics such as the use of psilocybin in the treatment of terminally ill cancer patients.

The anecdotal evidence is that psilocybin allows the patient to face death in a more open way, to realise on some level that death is just another stage in the passage of an eternal consciousness (that's how I would view it but best check the MAPS link above for more detailed assessment of the results). Now some proponents of the western worldview might say, well that's not treating the cancer patient, they're not getting better, but the point is that it alleviates suffering at the worst stage in cancer, namely the final stages, when panic and fear of death sets in leading to resistance and more suffering. So the worldview and even the scientific view of what illness is has to change.

But, yes, though recreational use will still continue (and why not since there are pleasurable effects from these medicines) the point I would make is that these are drugs in the sense of medicines and in future societies (near future, please) they will be used to help alleviate physical and psychological conditions, states of dis-ease and thus lead to a healthier society.

This isn't pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking. Pioneering science, based on evidence, is proving this. Just that the major pharmaceutical companies don't have much to gain and everything to lose from such developments, so are doing everything in their power, such as lobbying politicians and influencing journalists, to make sure this does not come to widespread attention.

It puzzled me why ecstasy, which was patented by Merck, one of the biggest pharma companies in the world, wasn't made legal since I imagined that Merck would make a mint out of ecstasy used (again in MAPS studies) as a therapeutic tool in psychology to treat sufferers of post-traumatic stress.

Then I recently discovered that all patented drugs have an end date, at which point the drug becomes generic and thus can be manufactured by anybody. So, of course, since MDMA was patented in 1913 I think, then obviously Merck would get no monopoly on its manufacture. Aha! so that's why; I thought. I don't know if anyone on here can confirm this, as my research can be a bit wayward at times :rolleyes: but I think that's correct.

So anyway, to sum up, yes, psychedelics are drugs, which are medicines, and the better and more effective ones will stand the test of time and help create a better society IMO :)

[Ostritt]

Nice post! Has anyone watched "ecstasy rising"? It's a documentary done by Peter Jennings on ABC, you can watch it on googlevideo. It's very informative and doesn't need to support one side or another as the facts really speak for themselves (our side definitely appears far more sane and truthful!) I was just reading the Invisible Landscape by Terence and Dennis McKenna and was thought this passage would be useful in this discussion:

“It is as though the shaman…practices a participation therapy of the most sophisticated type; by means of his ecstatic capacity, the shaman “plunges” into the collective unconscious and restores the patient’s self-identity (equivalent to “finding his soul”) by taking onto himself the unconscious contents that have inundated the patient through the principle of transference.”

Considering how terrified those in power are of us using our minds in a way they find unsavory, it seems more than ever that we need strong shamanic figures, the original psychiatrists, to heal our society. You only need to look at how successful entheogens are especially at treating addiction to see that this really is the most efficient option we have for global healing. Sometimes I wish all of our retarded leaders would spend just 1 night on MDMA and watch what happened the next day (first timers don't usually get skag luckily!) I would actually say that at this point most psychonauts should become, or are becoming, their own shamans... the structure of our societies have changed and it seems that the a single figure or a few figures simply aren't enough to deal with the scale we are talking about... food (of the gods) for thought! Peace

[Cornelius]

I am sure our society would benefit a great deal if those in power were more open to the use of psychedelics. During my first experience with mushrooms, one of the many conclusions I came to was that if someone added a great deal of psilocybin to the Washington, DC water supply, we would all be much better off. I felt that these mushrooms have the ability to strip away the bullshit surrounding modern life, leaving only that which is most important. Of course it eventually wears off, but the change in perspective never does. Ah... a man can dream...

[Szifers]

Terence McKenna: The Purpose of Psychedelics (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-128956108594455883)

"...and take back to the folks on shore and have fish dinner."

"... it's not for your elucidation..."

[mike ra]

if you where to ask the classic shaman their purpose for using various psychedelic substances, would they be able to differentiate the spiritual use of psychedelics from recreation?

i found using psychedelics in what i deem a 'shamanic' sense to be both fulfilling spiritually and recreationally.

I think psychedelics DO form our social and political 'underworld'.. It' IS the social elites tool for growth and insight; I think psychedelic tools are being used to the highest degrees upon society, vastly without 'our' knowledge; not just plant and chemical psychedelics either. Some of my favorite researched work include research showing the connection between psychedelics and world politics, specifically work detailing the psychedelic nature and beginings of world religions.

[psygnisfive]

I think psychedelics DO form our social and political 'underworld'.. It' IS the social elites tool for growth and insight; I think psychedelic tools are being used to the highest degrees upon society, vastly without 'our' knowledge; not just plant and chemical psychedelics either. Some of my favorite researched work include research showing the connection between psychedelics and world politics, specifically work detailing the psychedelic nature and beginings of world religions.

Beyond that, McKenna's (I think) idea about the great leap forward resulting from psychedelics makes some sense to me. I've wondered what would result from mild doses of psychedelics given to mice placed in circumstances that require abstraction and such.

[Szifers]

It seems to me that the primitive shamanistic view is not spiritual. When you climb up the mountain to hunt down an animal so that your people don't starve, are you fulfilling a mountainistic purpose? When you are healing using plants, are you herbalizing? The purpose is not defined by the tool. The shamanistic view is pragmatic. And I think that we are in dire need of pragmatism as opposed to ideologies.

Pragmatism is for example what you are referring to, Psygnisfive as McKenna's idea. He said that psychedelics are just simply the only tool that can achieve it in time. It's too late for any other, slower methods.

[Manila_Housecat]

if you where to ask the classic shaman their purpose for using various psychedelic substances, would they be able to differentiate the spiritual use of psychedelics from recreation?

i found using psychedelics in what i deem a 'shamanic' sense to be both fulfilling spiritually and recreationally.

For me, spirituality is intrinsically recreational! :)

I feel like God created psychedelics as a tool- a wrench that opens minds.

[max_freakout]

For me, spirituality is intrinsically recreational! :)



Only until you have a bad trip :eek::eek::eek:

[Steeldiehard]

What do you think the role of psychedelics and the visions they provide should be in modern society and in future societies? Should it inform our social and political worlds, our science and technology, or should it be just a tool for personal insight and growth? Should we adopt the visions as fact outright, after one acid trip or dmt revelation, or should we proceed with caution before assuming it's all real? Do we treat them as mere tools to be bent to our will used as a means to an end, or do we retain the "traditional" uses and customs and allow them to tell us what to do with them? And most importantly, regardless of your answers, why?

IMO they are a tool for personal insight and growth. If social, political, scientific, and religious worlds are influenced by psychedelics...it is incidental. Welcomed (note the positive vibe), but incidental nonetheless. Why is the use of psychedelics personal? Who really knows. I'd say its possible that we are but one source of energy and therefore only capable of personal insight and growth (whatever that means). We have the ability to communicate our thoughts, which may impact our world for the long or short-term; however, in the end (of our time as a human) we may only be left with our personal insight and growth.

Psygnisfive, may I ask, what do you mean by "used as a means to end"?

Best,

Steel

[Manila_Housecat]

Only until you have a bad trip :eek::eek::eek:

Lol, how do you have a bad trip in spirituality?

But seriously, is a bad trip not recreational?

[psygnisfive]

Means to an end as in a tool used to achieve something, not to used for the thing itself.

E.g., a hammer is used to put nails in wood, not just for hammering. Music, contrarilly, is the end in itself.

[Steeldiehard]

Means to an end as in a tool used to achieve something, not to used for the thing itself.

E.g., a hammer is used to put nails in wood, not just for hammering. Music, contrarilly, is the end in itself.

Thanks for clarifying, psygnis...I understand the traditional use of the phrase; however, I was curious if you were inferring a specific end. I'm not certain there is any finality when it comes to personal insight and growth. Although we can never be the first to use & experiment with psychedelics since we came after those who discovered them, we will always be the first to use & experiment with psychedelics for personal personal insight and growth. No one can take that away, which is unique and special IMO. :)

Steel

[mike ra]

Lol, how do you have a bad trip in spirituality?

But seriously, is a bad trip not recreational?

i recently had a trip which ended with me in a psych ward, for about a half hour.. i wouldnt even consider it as a bad trip, i didn't do anything too crazy.. but i completley stepped out of character.. which i think scared people a lot.

[Steeldiehard]

Wow, mike ra...are you able to elaborate more on your "stepping out of character" experience? If not cool...but I'd love to hear more. :)

Best,

Steel

[max_freakout]

i recently had a trip which ended with me in a psych ward, for about a half hour.. i wouldnt even consider it as a bad trip, i didn't do anything too crazy.. but i completley stepped out of character.. which i think scared people a lot.

How did you get out of the psych ward in such a short time? :confused:

[max_freakout]

Lol, how do you have a bad trip in spirituality?

But seriously, is a bad trip not recreational?

Well im equating 'spirituality' with 'psychedelicism' because from my point of view they are pretty much the same thing


and in my experience. a bad trip is not recreational, not unless burning in hell and being torn apart by vicious demons for all eternity is something you do for fun in your spare time :D:eek:

[psygnisfive]

Thanks for clarifying, psygnis...I understand the traditional use of the phrase; however, I was curious if you were inferring a specific end. I'm not certain there is any finality when it comes to personal insight and growth. Although we can never be the first to use & experiment with psychedelics since we came after those who discovered them, we will always be the first to use & experiment with psychedelics for personal personal insight and growth. No one can take that away, which is unique and special IMO. :)

Steel

Sure, I just don't think many people would find science to be, in general, deep and insightful. They'd probably shrug it off and ask how that affects them or why they should care. "So what if chemicals behave thusly, I don't care. It doesn't matter to me."

You generally have to be nerdy to care about that sort of thing. In that sense science right now is shallow.

Psychedelics and religious experience are the things that currently do the opposite; they tell you little to nothing about those things that science talks about, and instead they tell you about things of cosmic significance, or seeming such.

In _my_ opinion, the future would best be served by the development of a science that can reliably describe the world, for all its weirdness, and psychedelics would be used as the experimental tools. Psychedelics would be the particle accelerators and this new science would describe the readouts.

That's how I see psychedelics figure into the future — not as something separate from science, but science and psychedelics being two parts of the same explanatory whole, completely and perfectly capable of living together. I see that as _technically_ possible right now, but I don't see _any_ research along those lines.

I want to establish a research group to probe this in depth, and I have some things I hope to find, but I don't have the resources right now to do it. :P

[mike ra]

How did you get out of the psych ward in such a short time? :confused:

it was a little longer of a stay than i first said, more like a little longer than a hour. bout 45 mins in the chamber, and a short time in waiting.

by psychward, i mean lock down portion of any regular hospital.. they took my blood pressure, reflex, made me piss in a cup, talk to the dr for a small bit.. then i was released.. think they where checking to see if i may have had some other chemical in me.. like pcp, for example. they did absolutely nothing for me, I was still a bit out of it when i went in.. still hallucinating, but obviously on the come down.

this was off my 2nd real lsd trip.. i should have chilled at home. i was a bit embarrassed about everything i found out i did afterwards, but it was a learning experience to say the least. thought i could handle a high dose.. but ended up acting very unlike myself, in a fairly bad area of town at that.

[max_freakout]

it was a little longer of a stay than i first said, more like a little longer than a hour. bout 45 mins in the chamber, and a short time in waiting.

by psychward, i mean lock down portion of any regular hospital.. they took my blood pressure, reflex, made me piss in a cup, talk to the dr for a small bit.. then i was released.. think they where checking to see if i may have had some other chemical in me.. like pcp, for example. they did absolutely nothing for me, I was still a bit out of it when i went in.. still hallucinating, but obviously on the come down.




oh right, yeah taking your blood pressure and making you piss in a cup, they really know what a person having a bad trip needs dont they? :rolleyes::mad::(


psychiatric hospitals normally have ordinary wards and then one 'locked ward', that is the last place you need to be during a psychedelic crisis

[max_freakout]

Sure, I just don't think many people would find science to be, in general, deep and insightful. They'd probably shrug it off and ask how that affects them or why they should care. "So what if chemicals behave thusly, I don't care. It doesn't matter to me."


Lol, that's exactly what people say about philosophers!!!

meaning, shmeaning


Kent Brockman from Simpsons:

"no longer will unemployment be reserved for philosophy majors, now USEFUL people will be feeling the pinch!"

[psygnisfive]

haha. Well, thats often true about philosophy, but philosophy is FUN y'see. ;)