Episode 63: Pretty Amazing!

[TirikiteToker]

Wow, great episode KMO. I was really excited when I realised you would be responding to Max Freakout's recent Ego Death bent.

Unfortunately while you addressed quite a few points I'm happy to see raised regarding Max's position, eg understanding the attitudes of those who dismiss psychedelics as valid spiritual tools, I suspect I can guess part of his response. Heidi still got her initial moment of self-realisation under the influence of an entheogen (in her case, peyote). I'm really looking forward to next week's episode to hear her discuss the possibilities of genuine transcendental experience through yoga and meditation. But I think part of Max's argument is that entheogens are the only ultimately valid tool in providing that realisation and from Heidi's story, that doorway was opened by entheogens.

Likewise, in my own case, while I might be able to say that playing music as a teenager was my first experience of connection with the divine, I'd also have to admit that I didn't realise it fully at the time, and that it was entheogenic experiences which first made me aware of the possibilities of our consciousness. I've since had similar experiences through meditation, specifically a 10 day Vipassana meditation course (30 years not required!). But I wonder whether Max would respond that once again it was entheogens that first gave me that awareness, that first switched on the light and showed me what had been guessed at in darkness. Without psychedelics, I may never have even tried meditation, or known what to look for or how to identify what I was experiencing. God what a terrible thought!

The thing is that of course there are many people who have "experienced God" (in whatever shape or form that experience took) without any experience of drugs, perhaps through lots of yoga and meditation, drumming, trance dance, self-mutilation, etc etc. I can't really understand why Max doesn't seem to recognise that. Or is it just that he always disregards that and returns to gnaw on the "meditators who dismiss psychedelics" bone?

Another point I'd really like to see recognised or discussed here or probably more appropriately on Psychonautica is the benefits to be found from meditation and other "drug-free" spiritual pursuits when exploring psychedelic space. In my own case, until this year I'd had about 10 years' break from anything stronger than ganja. During that time I practised a lot of tabla, grew up a bit, and also did a Vipassana course and a few months meditation. Now back in the realm of psychedelic exploration, I often find myself coming back to my breath and sitting calmly, skills I learnt over years of practising tabla but intensively developed in that 10 day Vipassana course. Being able to sit still, breathe and feel assured that "everything is going to be OK, there's no need to make a negative judgement about this experience" has transformed some scary trip moments into wonderful blissful states.

It's all good, and rather than discussing meditation vs psychedelics, I think we should be discussing the benefits to be gained from all and the common points, not just the conflicts.

I notice you released this episode just after the most recent Psychonautica, which means we'll get to hear the rest of Heidi's story before we hear Max's response. I'm really looking forward to both podcasts!

[KMO]

Hey Tirikite Toker,

Thanks for starting this thread. Just for the sake of completion, I'll post the perfunctory episode info:

Episode 63: Pretty Amazing! (http://c-realmpodcast.podomatic.com/entry/2007-11-07T18_56_30-08_00)

http://c-realmpodcast.podomatic.com/2007-11-07T18_56_30-08_00.jpg (http://c-realmpodcast.podomatic.com/entry/2007-11-07T18_56_30-08_00)

KMO and meditation instructor Heidi Smith of the Center for Soulful Living pick up the conversation started on Psychonautica examining the friction between proponents of pharmacologically assisted spirituality and zero-tolerance advocates of drug-free meditation. Peak-oil oriented feedback, clips from the Psychedelic Salon and admissions of chronic absent-mindedness.

Show notes: http://kmo.livejournal.com/321517.html

[Veeg]

Tirikite Toker did scribe:

>Wow, great episode KMO<

Ditto, yet another insightful episode exploring our collective humanness!

> … [KMO] addressed quite a few points I'm happy to see raised regarding Max's position, eg understanding the attitudes of those who dismiss psychedelics as valid spiritual tools<

Sadly, this is the current state of play within most societies. In as much as we are part of a psychedelic (and spiritual) community we need to reach out to the wider community. The alternative to not opening up a dialogue with 'Job public' will be the continuation of the status quo and I think this is no longer an option. We need to reach out and effectively change these laws that criminalise the psychedelic experience. i'm very happy that Max has opened up this discussion.

>Heidi still got her initial moment of self-realisation under the influence of an entheogen (in her case, peyote)<

Heidi’s open discussion of her spiritual experience was truly wonderful to hear. To open up to an unseen, unknown audience was a touching act of trust. I find it very hard to discuss such experiences. I simply lack the words, there are no words. To be touch by the divine, to dance within this Mystery is my soul’s desire.

>But I wonder whether Max would respond that once again it was entheogens that first gave me that awareness, that first switched on the light and showed me what had been guessed at in darkness … God what a terrible thought!<

What a wonderful thought! :p

>The thing is that of course there are many people who have "experienced God" (in whatever shape or form that experience took) without any experience of drugs<

Are you sure? My apologies, I know I’m taking this quote out of context, but again, are you really sure? Whatever the nature of human consciousness is, it much rest within the chemical neuro-soup of the brain, and in that sense all experiences are drug induced. Can we really place a moral imperative on which drugs that shape our consciousness are derived?

>It's all good, and rather than discussing meditation vs. psychedelics, I think we should be discussing the benefits to be gained from all and the common points<

Beautifully stated. My personal psychedelic experiences have been very limited, but you only need one to realise that these states of consciousness are a gift and to quote the great bard McKenna ‘a birth right’.

[KMO]

Whatever the nature of human consciousness is, it much rest within the chemical neuro-soup of the brain, and in that sense all experiences are drug induced.

Hi Veeg,

Thanks for the good comments. I have one quibble, and it mainly comes from studying philosophy of mind from a materialist perspective in grad school. Rather than saying that all experiences are "drug induced," I would rather say that, as far as we understand the relationship between the mind and the brain, it would seem that all human experiences are realized in (or supervene upon) neuro-chemical processes. Or, if one is not a strict reductionist materialist about cognition, we could say that all human experiences are mediated or somehow facilitated by neuro-chemical processes.

But in general, I agree with the general thrust of your comments.

Thanks again, and stay well.

-KMO

[max_freakout]

i am unable to hear this podcast at the moment but i very much look forward to hearing it, i'll post back on here when i do :)

[Xochipilli2012]

(OOPS...I meant #64! This editing thing won't let me change that part.)

Greetings Fellow Travelers!

I really, really enjoyed this show--not just the wonderful first part of the interview with Heidi, but the clips KMO included from Psychonautica (or M. Hoffman's podcast) and The Psychedelic Salon. KMO--you truly have a talent for bringing interesting, poignant threads together into a marvelous tapestry.

I'm rushing to get out to a meeting so I just want to say that this is a wonderful thread so far and I hope I can contribute something interesting to it in the very near future. Both Weil and Smith illustrated things that I've tried to convey, perhaps with limited success, in other posts. (I was feeling like a "lone voice in the wilderness" for awhile there--but thankfully I'm learning that I'm not alone in seeing the value of mystical/meditative practices in addition to or alongside of entheogen use. Blessings to all the forum members who are speaking up on this subject.)

I've said it before and I'll say it again--Why can't we have both? Why do we need to go out looking for proof against one or the other? If you don't like meditation, yoga, what-have-you, don't bother. If entheogens don't work for you--don't go around putting down those of us who find value in them. And if you are in one "camp" or the other, consider giving more respect to those of us who like to roll in both.

Imagine if I were a "purist" about the "silent darkness" part of TMK's recommendation for entheogen use, and went on a tear against people who listened to music when they tripped. That would seem weird, wouldn't it? Imagine the converse--that I believed that music was key to having a positive entheogenic experience...and then I told people who tripped without music that they were wasting their time. Either perspective would seem a bit...intolerant.

That's all I have time for!

Keep up the great work, KMO!

I'll be baaaaack!!!

[KMO]

I hope you like episode #94 as much as you did this one. Thanks, man.

[Veeg]

Oh dear me! I'm surrounded by intelligent humans and I fear my IQ is not quite up there, so I'm going to have to use other people's words to get what I wish to say across.

... Rather than saying that all experiences are "drug induced," I would rather say that, as far as we understand the relationship between the mind and the brain, it would seem that all human experiences are realized in (or supervene upon) neuro-chemical processes. -KMO

This does sound awfully clinical, something definitely has been lost, we are much more than this. I really wish I hadn't used the 'drug' word, it's so negatively loaded it's almost obscene. Someone once said that culture and ideologies are not our friends, that these little pesky monkey noises we call words can trap us in a cage of language. My apologies to Tirikite Toke if my words come across as some sort of scientific reductionism which does seem to debase and deny what he was saying.

Or, ... we could say that all human experiences are mediated or somehow facilitated by neuro-chemical processes.-KMO

Spot on, thank you! Even if this relationship of Mind (soul?) / Brain (thing) is never understood, we are part of Nature. It's been said that we did not come into this world, we came out of it. We are living expressions of this Earth.

The Seeker impressed me with his experiences of meditation ('the primacy of directly felt living experience' comes to mind). I think I will explore this. Any suggestions welcome. I've started with a book!:rolleyes: Jack Kornfield's Meditation for Beginners (CD included!). :D

[KMO]

I'm not in a regular yoga routine right now, but I do do a few "yoga-informed" calisthenics here and there throughout the day if I'm at home. The nand or "Hindu push-up" is one of my favorites.

http://www.lockflow.com/article_view.php?id=1488

Incongruous as it may seem, I think I get a benefit from this exercise that is similar to the benefits of yoga, tai chi or meditation. I think Earthmansurfer could better explain the benefits of this exercise.

[KMO]

Here's a blog entry from SF author Steven Barnes on the topic of Hindu Push-ups:

http://darkush.blogspot.com/2004/12/hindu-pushup-routine.html

[Xochipilli2012]

Oh dear me! I'm surrounded by intelligent humans and I fear my IQ is not quite up there, so I'm going to have to use other people's words to get what I wish to say across.

Hi Veeg!

I felt the same way when getting onto these forums last spring. You wouldn't believe it, given my posting mania of late--but I was quite intimidated by all the bright and articulate people here. It may sound a little high falutin' but "being in the company of greatness pushes one towards greater things."

I think I will explore this. Any suggestions welcome. I've started with a book!:rolleyes: Jack Kornfield's Meditation for Beginners (CD included!). :D

Good for you! I don't know much about this book, but I've heard some really good things about it, and that having the CD with Jack doing some "guided" meditations was particularly helpful.

Once you have decided whether meditation is worthy of deeper exploration, I cannot recommend highly enough the works of Osho on the subject. Meditation is central to Osho's teaching and he personally developed several new techniques with modern, Western-oriented, meditators in mind. The book that provides a good introduction to meditation with a focus on these "modern" techniques is Meditation: The First and Last Freedom (http://www.amazon.com/Meditation-First-Last-Freedom-Osho/dp/0312336632/ref=pd_bbs_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194716469&sr=8-5). Osho's meditations are typically "active" or have an active stage, which can be particularly nice for people who have a hard time sitting still.

For a "meatier" book on the subject, Osho's The Book of the Secrets (http://www.amazon.com/Book-Secrets-Keys-Love-Meditation/dp/0312180586/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194716469&sr=8-1) is a "must have." It is an amazing compendium of lectures and Q & A on the ancient Indian text called The Vigyan Bhairav Tantra (http://www.meditationiseasy.com/mCorner/techniques/Vigyan_bhairav_tantra.htm), which is a very scientific approach to 112 different techniques of meditation which encompass the vast majority (if not all) of meditation techniques developed throughout the long history of human exploration of consciousness. Check out the reviews on Amazon to get some sense of how impactful this one book has been for a lot of people. This is such an important book, I'll be recommending it again and again. ;)

As long as we're talking books, another one (or pair) that I would also recommend is The Power of Now (http://www.amazon.com/Power-Now-Guide-Spiritual-Enlightenment/dp/1577314808/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194717267&sr=8-1) by Eckhart Tolle. This is a very down-to-earth approach towards becoming more present, and while not a book on meditation per se, Tolle does take "time outs" throughout his discussion offering little "experiments" in awareness to illustrate the points he is making. There is a companion book called Practicing the Power of Now (http://www.amazon.com/Practicing-Power-Now-Essential-Meditations/dp/1577311957/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194717267&sr=8-2) which extracts all these meditations into a single book that makes it is to refer to them later.

There are also many, many other fine books on the subject. I could recommend a few more, but the ones I've listed, particularly The Book of the Secrets and The Power of Now remain at the top of my list.

Veeg, I wish you much joy and insight in your exploration!

[Veeg]

Thanks guys. Wow! Thank you again for the suggestions. Assuming it is OK, I'll take this thread off forum (it is drifting off topic :)) and email you both with any follow up questions re: meditation techniques.

I need to let you know, like many other wage-slaves, at the moment I can only dream of a lifestyle of endless hours of leisure to pursue my interests. So please understand if my contributions are limited. I think KMO once stated others have similar situations of not having enough free(living) time to fully engage in these forums!

Blessings to all,

Veeg.

[EROCx1]

Here is TM on the matter.. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oun9nCG9qPM)
:)

[Samwise Ganja]

My first meditation experience was at the age of 16 and without drugs. It was to the accompaniment of music by some Australian white light dolphin music composer. I sat on my bed for and did some calm deep breathing and after about 15 minutes I was feeling expanded, lightweight and perfectly happy.

From about 17 - 25 years old I was practicing things from the Western Mystery Tradition, such as the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram, Middle Pillar Ritual, Circulation of the Body of Light, Tarot contemplation, Dream Journal, quiet sitting meditation, body scans, etc. Even tried some Talismanic Magick.

Most of what I learnt and practiced came from books by Aleister Crowley, Israel Regardie, Donald Michael Kraig and another author, David Goddard, who wrote The Tower of Alchemy: An Advanced Guide to the Great Work. Took me 5 years to complete the thought-form practices contained therein. Some interesting results and changes in my life, personality and understanding.

I´ve also been in the O.T.O. (Ordo Templi Orientis) since 2001, wherein I have participated in initiations, group rituals, meditations, pathworking, and more. Sometimes I´ve used cannabis, sometimes I´ve been straight. Both have had interesting results.

Thanks also to all the great suggestions by others on the forum!